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Author Topic: Print Image a little darker than on screen  (Read 10518 times)
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2006, 06:33:56 AM »
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svaughan, I have downloaded your image and opened it in Photoshop CS2 with Soft Proof Active for Epson Enhanced Matte paper. I preserved your colour working space being Adobe RGB98. The image on my monitor looks fine. Portions of the rocks that are good candidates for neutral grey are indeed neutral grey, as shown by values of 0 or very near thereto in both L*a*b channels a and b. So the problem is not your image and not your monitor calibration. That much is resolved. If I were to print this on my 4800, it would come out fine, taking into account that it is a rather low-contrast image given the basic luminosity of the scene. I also activated Gamut Warning and found there is very little out of gamut that would point to a problem caused by choice of rendering intent (say between Relative COlorimetric and Perceptual). I have also reviewed everything you've told us right from the beginning of this thread. Unless there is some other gremlin caused by settings you have not mentioned, I think your problem could well be the paper you are using. Paper makes a HUGE difference to the quality of the print.

I have a suggestion. Buy a box of A4 or Letter Size Epson Enhanced Matte (it's cheap), select the Epson Enhanced Matte Paper profile in Photoshop Print with Preview and in the Epson printer driver, activate Proof Colors, make final Curves tweaks in this mode, then print the image on Enhanced Matte, making sure the coated side of the paper gets the print. If everything else is OK, my prediction is that the output will look a bit subdued, but most of the shadow detail will be OK, and the greens will be fine, except for some of the more yellowish pine needles at the right side and near-centre of the image - they will come out slightly flatter than what you see on the monitor, regardless of Proof Set-Up viewing and adjusting.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
svaughan
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2006, 08:26:19 PM »
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I would like to thank everyone for their comments and suggestions. I can honestly say this topic seems to be a real issue with digital photography, not just with me.

I agree what Mark say's my problem may be with the paper. I am using Epson Premium Semigloss, which produces slightly darker prints then the glossy.

I am still not confinced my monitor is profilling corretly. When I boot up, the monitor screen will lighten automatically.  If I go to color management, deselet my profile and select it again, my monitor will darken. Go figure. There was one suggetion to set my monitor to something like 120 ??  Not sure how. I'll have to investigate this.

I have some of the cheap matt paper, I will do some printing with it and see what the outcome is. I lightend the pic and printed it on a 4x6 glossy and the detail is there, but I lost a little contrast.  Thanks to all the comments, it has been a great help.

br slv.
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francois
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« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2006, 02:12:24 AM »
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...There was one suggetion to set my monitor to something like 120 ?? Not sure how. I'll have to investigate this. ...
I made that suggestion. In the profiling software I use (Eye-One Match, advanced mode), one of the first step is to set display luminance. Other software packages also offer the same functionality. Try it, but I guess that your printing problem is a combination of smaller problems and it's not easy to find a solution.

FWIW, here's what Eye-One Match help says about it:

Luminance

Please select your desired luminance of your monitor in cd/m2.
You may select between several presets, select a custom value or ignore luminance adjustments of you monitor (no change setting).

For CRT monitors we recommend 100 cd/m2.
For LCD monitors we recommend 120 cd/m2.
For older CRT monitors we recommend 80 cd/m2 because they could rarely reach a higher luminance level. Below 80 cd/m2 you should not set the monitors luminance.
For laptop screens we recommend 90 cd/m2.

If you desire to calibrate multiple monitors you should choose the same white point, gamma and luminance value on each monitor. The target luminance for all monitors will be the luminance of the weakest monitor.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 02:16:33 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
svaughan
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« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2006, 07:37:23 PM »
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I got an excellent print today using the premium semi-gloss epson paper.  I found two issues I had to correct.
1) I use Adobe RGB 1998, but my intent was set to perceptual, so I changed it to colorimetric to match the intent in the print space. Not sure if I needed to, but it seem to work.
2) In my print setup for the Epson when I choose ICM for color management, instead of selecting No Color Adjustment, I selected apply printer software and it assigned the proper epson profile for my paper selection. Wow what a difference.

Question to anyone that wants to answer. I have a custom profile my brother gave me, for the same printer. To use it, I would select this profile in my print space in photo shop correct, then choose ICM and select No Color Adjustment. Is this correct?  

I guess at this point the standard profiles that come with the Epson really do well.

Best Regards Steve
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2006, 08:35:42 PM »
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Steve, essentially what you've done with those settings is to let the printer rather than Photoshop manage the colours. While in principle it is supposed to work better the other way around, if the other path just isn't doing it for you and this one is, don't argue with success. Glad you got a solution that is giving you results you can live with.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
svaughan
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« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2006, 09:13:59 PM »
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Steve, essentially what you've done with those settings is to let the printer rather than Photoshop manage the colours. While in principle it is supposed to work better the other way around, if the other path just isn't doing it for you and this one is, don't argue with success. Glad you got a solution that is giving you results you can live with.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Mark, yes I agree. In fact everything I read says don't do this because it doubles the conversion on color. I will do some more prints, it might be that I just need to use the standard printer profiles and the custom one my brother gave me,  was created to fit his PC system.
Thanks for your help. slv.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2006, 10:00:58 PM »
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Actually, you defintely should NOT have BOTH Photoshop and the printer driver managing colour. It will cause headaches. Since the printer driver seems to be working better for you, I recommend you keep that one. The Epson paper profiles deliver very decent quality. Therefore, in the Print with Preview Options under Color Handling (Photoshop CS2) select "Let Printer Determine Colors". Then you should be fine.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2006, 11:07:22 AM »
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Actually, you defintely should NOT have BOTH Photoshop and the printer driver managing colour. It will cause headaches. Since the printer driver seems to be working better for you, I recommend you keep that one. The Epson paper profiles deliver very decent quality. Therefore, in the Print with Preview Options under Color Handling (Photoshop CS2) select "Let Printer Determine Colors". Then you should be fine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[SIZE=14]




i have a similar proble with an epson pro 4800.....printing on enhanced matte etc.....since last fall when i got it..i've gone round and round on this.....it is about 1 stop darker on the print than on the screen.....<photoshop cs>....part of it i attribute to just the paer itself..it sucks the ink in the shadows and depending on the light looks good or not....also the cinema apple screen etc....is so illuminious etc.....that to me it gives a semi false impression...everything else is ok color etc....so i just kinda work with it.....one would think there would be just a simple something on the printer or program that you could just make it 1 stop lighter screen to print.....
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svaughan
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2006, 01:00:59 PM »
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Actually, you defintely should NOT have BOTH Photoshop and the printer driver managing colour. It will cause headaches. Since the printer driver seems to be working better for you, I recommend you keep that one. The Epson paper profiles deliver very decent quality. Therefore, in the Print with Preview Options under Color Handling (Photoshop CS2) select "Let Printer Determine Colors". Then you should be fine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Mark, I use Photo Shop CS and don't see that option in print preview. Do you know if this option is available in CS?
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2006, 01:10:13 PM »
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Sorry Steve I forgot you are using CS. No problem, it can do exactly the same thing - only the routing is a bit different. Open an image in CS. Open Print with Preview. Under the image check the "Show More Options" box. In Source Space, select Document. Under that, in Print Space, in the profile drop-down window, scroll to the top, and the second item may well be "Printer Color Management". If it is not the second find it elsewhere on the list and select it. That should direct Photoshop to letting the printer manage the color.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
elliot_n
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2006, 05:34:49 PM »
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FWIW, the image of the pine trees is flat, dark and dingy (apart from the burnt out sky).

I think you have a problem with your monitor calibration.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2006, 08:58:24 PM »
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I am using Photoshop CS to edit my prints. I use the Adobe RGB 1998 as my work space, and I have calibrated my monitor using the Eye One Display meter.

When I am done with my contrast adjustments, sharpening and ready to print, my print comes out slightly darker than on my screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are three requirements to match luminance between a monitor and a print:

1: A properly profiled monitor. Assuming non-defective equipment and your ability to use it correctly, you probably have this covered. BTW, a monitor luminance/hue shift during bootup is normal. It is the monitor profile being applied. If you see nothing change, either you have a very unusual monitor that requires no color or luminance adjustments at all (highly unlikely), or else your calibration software isn't loading any profile for some reason, which is bad.

2: A properly profiled printer. Some canned printer profiles are pretty good, but properly made custom profiles are always better. But custom profiles are only valid for a particular set of driver and other printing settings. If you change anything, you can completely invalidate the profile.

3: A controlled ambient light source. This is the one everyone forgets about, but it really should be obvious. If you compare a monitor image and print in total darkness, the monitor image will always be brighter than the print. If the ambient light level is bright enough, the print will be brighter than the monitor image. If you alter the color characteristics of the ambient light, you will alter the color match between the print and monitor as well. To match luminance and hue between monitor and print, you must have a light source that is controlled in both color and intensity.

Printer profiles are always created for a given standard lighting condition, usually D50 or D65, which specifies both the intensity and the color charactics of the ambient light. Monitor profiles are created to a target luminance value and a selected color temperature. In most cases, calibrating the monitor to 6500K and creating printer profiles with D50 seems to work best to match color between printer and monitor.  In your case, your ambient lighting is too dim to properly match print and monitor. Assuming your profiles are OK (and they probably are; bad profiles will usually cause color mismatch problems far worse than luminance mismatches) you have 2 options: you can lower the brightness of your monitor and reprofile it to a slightly lower luminance value, or you can increase the brightness of the ambient light you use to compare monitor image and print. The best (and of course the most expensive) solution is a print viewing booth with controlled color temperature and adjustable brightness so you can achieve a perfect match.

The advice about double color management is sound; have either Photoshop or the print driver handle the conversion from the working space to the print space, but not both. Doing so is a recipe for disaster. I generally prefer to have Photoshop handle color management, as in most cases it will do a better job than the print driver. Photoshop will convert a 16-bit image to the print space in 16-bit mode, and then downsample to 8 bits if necessary to send the data to the print driver. Letting the printer driver do the conversion means the data is downsampled to 8 bits before the color space conversion and you'll have more posterization and banding than otherwise.
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efillink
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« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2006, 02:32:38 AM »
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I am using Photoshop CS to edit my prints. I use the Adobe RGB 1998 as my work space, and I have calibrated my monitor using the Eye One Display meter.

When I am done with my contrast adjustments, sharpening and ready to print, my print comes out slightly darker than on my screen.

I am using some of the standard printer profiles printing on premium epson paper, and have even used a custom made on my brother had, as he has the same printer. On the web you can get some nice printer profiles for the Epson.

Any suggestions how to correct this darkness difference?
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There is also a possibility the driver is not current.  I have seen in other forums that the dark prints is sometimes caused by the oringinal Epson driver.  Download the latest, remove the current driver, delete the driver if you know where it is located.  Load the new driver to make sure you are up to date.  Hope this will solve the dark shade problem.
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