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Author Topic: What the best?  (Read 8071 times)
fcicconi
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« on: February 19, 2006, 05:32:41 AM »
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Hallo, My name is Fabrizio, I'm italian and sorry for my maccaroni english. This is a great forum and web site!!!!  
I want to buy a digital back and I'm undecided between Phase One and Leaf
I Want to ask if someone have compare the digital back Phase One P25 and Leaf Aptus 22 with new software Leaf Capture 10!
I have Contax 645 camera, my work is commercial and art photos. I 'll use the digital back for both.
I make portraits architectural and internal house pictures, and I use the camera with several lenses above all norrmal and wide angle lenses, for the portraits I use normally f2 open and I use natural light with exposure time sometime very slow (1/4 second) You can see my web site fabrizio cicconi...
I made some demo with both back and the difference are really little.
I use the Capture One for devolope my Canon raw File and it's a great software.
The new leaf software is better now.
The dealers try to sell me there own product: one with kodak CCD with problem with wide angle, and the other with philps CCD with problem whith long exposure and the file not so clear.
I did't see a very big differnce.
The prices are the same.
Who can help me? Before I'll spend so many money?  
or
 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 05:35:29 AM by fcicconi » Logged
Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2006, 09:43:49 AM »
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I went for the P25 (incidentally there's some terrific deals available now on refurbished P25 backs) but I'd be the first to recognise that the screen on the Aptus looks a lot better. Luckily I mainly use mine on a view camera, so there's always a dark cloth handy! The main advantages for me from the Phase One are software based, simple stitching (I use a slide mount so often stitch two shots together), good software based moire controls, and easy corrections of colour casts which is also important when using wide lenses and movements on a view camera.
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yaya
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2006, 05:31:21 AM »
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"and the file not so clear."...

I strongly suggest that you ave another look at these two backs. Compare the shadow and higlight detail and the look and feel of skintones. These two areas are where the Leaf will have the biggest advantage. Also if you shoot people and need the ability to shoot fast, then there is no faster back than Leaf at the moment.
I personally know the Italian Leaf dealer and can assure you that you will not find a better service anywhere else in the world.
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Let Biogons be Biogons
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« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2006, 05:32:12 PM »
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Quote
I went for the P25 (incidentally there's some terrific deals available now on refurbished P25 backs) <snip>
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58533\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What are the deals available on the refurbished P25's?  Wher can you find them?  Thanks.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2006, 07:16:43 PM »
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Does it really make sense to spend 18.000 US$ now for a used P25 knowing that Canon will probably release their 22 MP body by the end of this year?

And I am not even mentioning the various rumours on the Nikon side...

I personnally don't think so.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
fcicconi
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2006, 12:43:23 AM »
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What are the deals available on the refurbished P25's?  Wher can you find them?  Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58649\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There are two dealers in Milano I try one (lead) an expert for the post production, and he did a demo with an hasselblad V and my Mamyia RZ good demo and correct.
Now I call the other deal that is the first phase one deal (digital wave)  that now change and go to work in mafer.
I found them on the phase one web site and I ask who are the best and can make good assistance,
Phase One was really correct and answer to me that both are really good.
I don' understand the dealers political of phase one. why two in the same town?
Leaf have one deal I think good (A/D imaging), but they make me a demo with my mamyia RZ and I  had some problems with the focus whith the open f lens ( how do you say in english?).
Everyone try to sell there own digital back. I I asked for an used back not new. They have.
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fcicconi
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2006, 12:48:27 AM »
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Does it really make sense to spend 18.000 US$ now for a used P25 knowing that Canon will probably release their 22 MP body by the end of this year?

And I am not even mentioning the various rumours on the Nikon side...

I personnally don't think so.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hallo Bernard.
yes probally you have the reason with the price, but I worked with canon DS MK II several time and when I make the portraits  with f 2,8 the focus was a problem, and the file quality is really different, I compare with a Leaf aptus 17 of my fiend.
Thank you best regards.
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Let Biogons be Biogons
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2006, 11:00:57 AM »
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What makes you think that Canon is goingto release a 22mp camera?  They didn't go for a larger pixel count on the 30D (as similar predictions thought they would). As far as I can see, a 22mp canon would just further expose the weaknesses of the lenses, provide little useful added resolution (limitations of the lenses), just adds to the cost and challenge of doing it.

If you really "need" 22mp or in situations that require 22mp, and want to provide the best possible 22mp images, they you really do need to be using a digtal back on the MF camera.  

Like with the 30D, Canon would be much smarter to refine the 1Ds MkII (perhaps another"n" revision) to improve features and image quality, and respond to users complaints and suggestions for the camera.  Canon's investment dollars would be better spent on these issues than a mindless and costly march to higher (and wasted) pixel counts.  Canon has nothing to gain going to 22mp.  There is still no competition at 16mp and little additional market by going to 22mp.

Like the 10+mp predictions for the 30D, 22mp for a new 1Ds is just baseless rumor.

I'm sure you don't beleive me, but you will see.


Quote
Does it really make sense to spend 18.000 US$ now for a used P25 knowing that Canon will probably release their 22 MP body by the end of this year?

And I am not even mentioning the various rumours on the Nikon side...

I personnally don't think so.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 05:25:09 PM by Let Biogons be Biogons » Logged
Ed Jack
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2006, 11:58:25 AM »
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The A75 gives a useable iso 800- atleast for what I use it for, with little compression of the DR. The P45, which in many ways is a direct competator to the Aptus 75, "only" goes to iso 400, which is bizare as the P25 gave a clean iso 800 using pixel binning. Now why Phase don't use pixel binning on the P45 I really don't know... especially with all that data, binning becoming even more of a good compromise to my mind. I've never had a good explaination fo this and there is no reason why they can't do the software tweak tomorrow AFAIKT. Afterall  its the RAw converter that does all hte calcualtion for this.. itsnot as if some major hardware is needed in hte back - it should be a firmware upgrade possibility ?!

I use a H1 and am still not sure how much real resolution increase I would get froma P45 compared to a P25 given the P25 may well be challeging my lens ? Then again many people claim you get some nice by-products from these out resolved lens by the sensor, such as reduced Moire and more "natural looking images" (after all most Pro films "out resolves" most lenses in MF in a spacial sense).

I guess I need to try a P45 myself. Kinda glad I never invested in a P25 and just rented.

Ed
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fcicconi
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 01:23:54 AM »
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Hallo, My name is Fabrizio, I'm italian and sorry for my maccaroni english. This is a great forum and web site!!!!  
I want to buy a digital back and I'm undecided between Phase One and Leaf
I Want to ask if someone have compare the digital back Phase One P25 and Leaf Aptus 22 with new software Leaf Capture 10!
I have Contax 645 camera, my work is commercial and art photos. I 'll use the digital back for both.
I make portraits architectural and internal house pictures, and I use the camera with several lenses above all norrmal and wide angle lenses, for the portraits I use normally f2 open and I use natural light with exposure time sometime very slow (1/4 second) You can see my web site fabrizio cicconi...
I made some demo with both back and the difference are really little.
I use the Capture One for devolope my Canon raw File and it's a great software.
The new leaf software is better now.
The dealers try to sell me there own product: one with kodak CCD with problem with wide angle, and the other with philps CCD with problem whith long exposure and the file not so clear.
I did't see a very big differnce.
The prices are the same.
Who can help me? Before I'll spend so many money? 

 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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fcicconi
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 01:31:12 AM »
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Quote from: fcicconi,Feb 22 2006, 09:23 AM

Sorry I wrong to push the botton,
Anybody use Leaf ? Only Yaya?
Do you know the normal second hand prices for these digital back?
I found one for 19.944,262 $ a Demo back!
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dazzajl
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2006, 07:54:52 AM »
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Anybody use Leaf ? Only Yaya?

I use leaf but the Valeo and not the Aptus range.

For what it's worth I've always been very happy using these backs but I didn't get to do much in the way of comparison at the time of my first purchase as only the Valeo really met my needs.

As for used backs, I've not seen many (I'm in the UK) and I suspect that most go back to Creo as part of upgrade deals.
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2006, 05:04:17 AM »
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"What are the deals available on the refurbished P25's? Wher can you find them?"

Phase One took exchanged P25 backs and refurbished them, then offered them out to their dealer network where they're currently for sale. Here in the UK they're at 10k but I've heard that some retailers are doing deals and you can get them for about 9k, which is almost exactly half the price they were selling at just two months ago.

From what I've seen they look identical to brand new P25 backs, they come in the same pelican style case outer, complete with cabling, software and a 12 months guarantee (and if they last 12 months they'll last the rest of your life).

I believe there's one small element missing versus the new P25 product, I can't remember if it was a second battery or a memory card, but apart from that relatively trivial component your patience in waiting 18 months from the UK release will be rewarded with an 8k or 9k saving!

Regarding a P25 versus a 22MP next generation Canon 1Ds Mk II, well it's horses for courses.

I sometimes use a 1Ds Mk II with a full compliment of T&S lenses for architectural shots. It's okay, but no better than okay. It can't compare in either quality or versatility to the results I get with a P25 on the back of a Linhof M679 with Rodenstock Apo-Sironar Digital lenses. And boosting the Canon sensor to 22 or 24MP won't change that verdict one jot. Much as a I value Canon's T&S lens range they've pretty much hit the wall by about 10 or 12MP, as have virtually all their lenses that are wider than about 35mm.

Conversely for travel or street or documentary photography I can't see much to better a 5D with a 24-105mm 4.0L IS or the Nikon equivalent. And if you were looking for a long lens outfit for sports or wildlife then again, forget a P25, Canon or Nikon reign supreme.

About the only areas where I can see any overlap is portraiture, fashion, and social. But even here, 35mm and medium format have co-existed for the last twenty years, with each photographer making his or her choice based on their own personal shooting styles. I don't see that it'll be any different with the P25/P45 versus the 1Ds Mk II/Mk III.
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fcicconi
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2006, 12:56:20 PM »
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Hallo Gary, in all photo life I Worked with the medium and 4x5 size. Now for me contax 645 for use is like a canon.

The canon problems are not a very good file, focusing problem at 2,8 aperture, and the spot on the CCD, that if I hange the lens soon and I make a lot of shoot, is terrible to retouch.

The dealer will sell to me a demo back full optionals with two years of guarantee, and it come from phase one home in Denmark.
The other (leaf) with Three years...
Thank a lot.

Fab.
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fcicconi
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2006, 10:15:03 AM »
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Hallo,
After a lot of tests,
I choose Phase One P25.
It's good  for the long exopsure no noise, I still know the software and soon with an update for the Intel Mac and more, Colors Correction for the stich and wide angle problems... Only with the stich and big movement with the 4x5(Leaf say that there is no problem with the aptus back but they didn't show me if it's real or not).Phase one dealers are really properly.

Leaf is good too, But  the demo and the big Lcd  screen were not enough.

Thank you everybody.
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vgogolak
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2006, 11:44:35 AM »
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Well, Ciccone, Congratulations. I am sure you have much pleasure image making with the P25.

One item not mentioned that makes a BIG difference in my mind is the C1 software that works with P25. Also, the H25 comparisons over many years showed great value of this system, now only portable.

There is also advantage of the 9micron pixel size. Will make use of large format lens and also shifting much better than with 6.8micron pixels.

Have fun! And remember that for $14,400 more you can upgrade to P45!

 

Regards
Victor
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