Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: CANON 1DS Mark lll  (Read 45395 times)
Dinarius
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 710


« on: March 10, 2006, 01:40:16 AM »
ReplyReply

Rumours are starting to appear about what the Mark lll will be like. e.g. here for starters........

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html

If the next 1Ds is indeed a 20+Mp whopper, will it be the camera that finally does for the obscenely overpriced medium format backs?

Or will Canon's stranglehold on the market be so great that we'll just be screwed from all directions?

Needless to say, I hope it's the former. I recently did a 'back of the envelope' survey with a bunch of pros and asked them, 'How much of your work is for use up to A5?' The answer was, most of it. I then asked how much is used up to A4. A hell of a lot less was the general concensus. Finally, I asked how often they needed to shoot for larger than A4. Almost never came the reply. Pretty much what I expected.

Let's face it, our most critical viewing distance in terms of all round image quality is when we hold an A4 magazine or brochure in our hands. It simply has to look knockout. Otherwise it just doesn't pass muster. And the camera that covers this base at the right price will wipe the floor with all others. As of yet, I don't think it exists.

Will it be the Mark lll?

D.
Logged
jani
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1604



WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2006, 04:21:48 AM »
ReplyReply

Huh, that has to be the thinnest speculation I've ever seen anywhere.

It's impressive that Keith couldn't conjure up some in-depth fantasies!

BTW, my guess is that the name will be Canon EOS 1DV or 1VD because:

1) it's about time to merge the 1D and 1Ds lines into a high-resolution camera that's also capable of high speed (perhaps at a 1.3x or 1.6x crop, similar to what the D2x does); this is not new speculation.
2) name similarity to the excellent brand name EOS 1V sends the signal that this is finally the ultimate digital SLR.

Of course, Canon may surprise (well, not really) us all and just launch a slightly re-vamped 1Ds MkII N in April, just as they did with the 1D MkII N.

But who cares! I can get a used 1Ds MkII for only USD 7100 (25% sales tax inclusive)!
Logged

Jan
michael
Administrator
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4896



« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2006, 06:25:08 AM »
ReplyReply

Some site's ban speculation like this.

I don't, since it can be fun and informative.

But I agree. This is the thinest ever.

Let's move along.

Michael
Logged
Dinarius
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 710


« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2006, 07:33:06 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Some site's ban speculation like this.

I don't, since it can be fun and informative.

But I agree. This is the thinest ever.

Let's move along.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not so fast, the issues isn't simply one of whether or not that will be the next Canon.

The issue is also one of bangs (or pixels) for your buck.

Will a serious jump in resolution in the next Canon benefit all of us or not?

D.
Logged
madmanchan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2110


« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2006, 07:40:18 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Not so fast, the issues isn't simply one of whether or not that will be the next Canon.

The issue is also one of bangs (or pixels) for your buck.

Will a serious jump in resolution in the next Canon benefit all of us or not?

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dinarius, I suggest you read Michael's recent article on his latest digital system.  One of the take-home lessons from that article is that few of Canon's lenses hold up to the merciless resolving power of the 1Ds II.  It can be argued that even the best are being pushed to their limits.  It stands to reason that a higher-megapixel sensor in a 24x36 frame will simply exacerbate the problem.  In other words, we'd get more but lousier pixels.

At this point, we're basically lens-limited.  Until the lenses improve, there's little point going to higher-resolution sensors.

Eric
Logged

bob mccarthy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 372


WWW
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2006, 09:27:49 AM »
ReplyReply

I would be surprised if Canon released this camera at 20+ mpxl's. The photos won't be necessarily better.  I believe Eric has it correct.

Look to the new  30D

To me the real home run for Canon is the same chip, processing improvements and a "Smaller body".

If the D200 came with the same chip as the D2x, I'd switch in a heartbeat.

These digi cams are huge at the top end.

Bob
Logged
benInMA
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 186


« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2006, 09:35:27 AM »
ReplyReply

Yah I would agree and expect it to be more like the 30D update.

Many people are saying the 1DsII only has marginal extra quality over the 5D.

If that is the case and the sensors are actually really pushing the lens, then they might choose to keep it at the current megapixel level and instead focus on merging the 1DsII and 1D into one FF body with high speed.

Personally I would not be satisfied with it being slow in FF and fast in 1.3x mode or something though, that would be a cop-out IMO.  The technology is there to make it shoot faster at that price point without cropping the image.

It's just a question of putting enough bandwidth & RAM into the camera, it's hard to believe the sensor itself is not fast enough for high speed and we know they can build all the mechanical bits to run at full speed.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 09:36:20 AM by benInMA » Logged
bob mccarthy
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 372


WWW
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2006, 09:57:01 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
It's just a question of putting enough bandwidth & RAM into the camera, it's hard to believe the sensor itself is not fast enough for high speed and we know they can build all the mechanical bits to run at full speed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not as convinced as you that it would be inexpensive or as doable.

But more importantly, does the file size come into play when editing a zillion shots when an 8mpxl is perfectly functional for the typical high speed user.

I'm guessing but I think the breakthrough on the MK III is going to be reduced price over the MK II.

Bob
Logged
benInMA
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 186


« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2006, 10:10:56 AM »
ReplyReply

For $8000 I think they should be able to make it run 8fps @ 16mp these days.

That's a lot of money, there are lots of other bits of computer hardware that can move that kind of data without costing $8000.

The actual CF storage, etc.. would seem to be more of the problem.   Moving that kind of data internally in the camera should not be that hard in an $8000 piece of hardware.

Video busses in cheap PCs can move that kind of data around without costing thousands.

Personally I could care less though, I'm not going to be in the market for a camera like that.
Logged
francois
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6877


« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2006, 10:12:20 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
...I'm guessing but I think the breakthrough on the MK III is going to be reduced price over the MK II....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59990\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I really hope Canon is hearing you on this  
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 10:14:09 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
Jack Flesher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2595



WWW
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2006, 10:22:24 AM »
ReplyReply

As long as we're "hypothecating", I'll add mine

I think the big breakthrough will be a 4:3 aspect ratio sensor.  Using the existing lenses (image circle constrained) and similar sensor pixel-site size, this would add about 10% to gross resolution. Go even slightly smaller on the pixels and you get a 20% increase for roughly 20MP.

Now add in a pellicle mirror assembly and you can get high frame rates AND real-time sensor viewing.  AND by sealing that same assembly you can alleviate the sensor dust issues that plague the current 1-series cameras.  The pellicle does trim about 1/2 stop to the sensor, but with today's clean high ISO's that becomes a trivial downside for the added gains.

1.4x crop makes more sense to me than 1.3 or 1.6, but I won't complain if it is 1.3.
Logged

madmanchan
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2110


« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2006, 11:32:00 AM »
ReplyReply

I'll add this to the mix.  I found this post by Simon Dai over at RobGalbraith's forums:

Quote
In DC Watch's interview with Canon Japan's Mr. Murano from their Image Communication Products Operations at PMA 2006 in Florida, he said the following:


The image quality of the original EF 85/1.2L is considered very high so we chose only to improve the AF speed, shape of aperture diaphrams etc. In order to bring the image quality to a higher lever, overall improvement to the complete EF lens lineup including all fixed focal length lenses is being planned by Canon. Currently, there're many A3 size printers targeting high-end photo enthusiasts, as well as many large format printers specifically designed for professionals. In order to avoid conspicuous aberration when outputing images from the afore-mentioned equipment, there's a need for us to tackle the maintenance of our EF lenses.


If you read Japanese, the original can be found at the following URL:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/other/2006/03/02/3338.html

(the bold emphasis is mine)

Eric
Logged

61Dynamic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1442


WWW
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2006, 11:33:38 AM »
ReplyReply

I feel obligated to post the 1D MkIII picture again. It's obviously a fake since it has no Direct Print button.
Logged
BJL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5163


« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2006, 12:44:09 PM »
ReplyReply

If that quote can be believed about Canon planning to improve the resolution of the EF lens line, I am surprised, because they have done absolutely nothing in this direction throughout their 35mm format DSLR development, and surely Canon has known for years the capabilities and limits of its current lenses. Indeed I was about to cite the fact that the recent Mark II update of Canon's very high end 85/1.2L failed to increase resolution.

Anyway, even if such lenses are planned, Canon could not deliver a full suite of them in time next 1Ds model, so I agree with the prediction that the "Mark III" will mainly address the most glaring weakness of the 1Ds series so far: low frame rate.


P. S. If Canon's image quality goal is "good enough for A3 printers" as indicated, I am not sure if that calls for going substantially beyond the current 16MP. Canon might only mean getting its lenses up to the level needed by 16 to 20 MP 24x36mm sensors.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 12:48:30 PM by BJL » Logged
Jack Flesher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2595



WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2006, 01:14:07 PM »
ReplyReply

IMO only, but...

Just like with film, camera platforms are going to hit limitations based on their form factor.  I suspect the 35mm DSLR is already there and in fact, cameras like the 1Ds2, DMR and D2x are generating image quality essentially on par with the best MF film images of a few years ago.  

The next step up therefor is high-resolution digital MF sensors -- which we now have -- and they are currently pressing into territory that just a few years ago was relegated to large-format film only.  The most important piece of the LF mix that was missing was camera standard movements. So add the MF back to a camera with movements, presto you've got a digital "view" solution.  Yet with that same back mounted on a compatible MF camera, you have a relatively portable and extremely high resolution digital combo.  

The only component that keeps the above from totally killing off traditional LF for commercial users is an even higher-resolution scanning back -- which we also have available -- and for the most part that device can exceed what even Ultra-LF format film can simply because of lens deficiencies as you go that large.

So, I am of the opinion that from a resolution standpoint we have just about hit the maximum for the conventional DSLR camera and agree that future enhancements will focus () on improving other aspects of image quality and the hardware.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 01:17:25 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

benInMA
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 186


« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2006, 02:20:15 PM »
ReplyReply

Improvements in lenses will certainly be nice if they can pull it off.

In many areas there is little to be done.  (e.x. most of the stuff beyond 100mm they are doing pretty darn well)

It'd be nice if they revamp some of the wide primes, etc..

I'm not sure their lens development has actually slowed down during their big DSLR push, there has been a steady stream of new lenses over the last 3-4 years.   But putting all those resources into so many DSLRs and then having to split lens efforts between EF and EF-S the last few years can't have helped.

IMO though people are probably expecting some improvements they are just not going to get, don't hold your breath for ultra-wide zooms that equal Zeiss & Leica primes for example.

Things I'd like:
- 50/1.4 with ring USM
- Redo the 20/2.8 (optical), and 24/2.8, 28/2.8, and 35/2 (optical + add ring USM, etc..)

Though that said the 20/2.8 I had showed some corner softness occasionally & the 24/2.8, 28/2.8, and 35/2 never really impressed me, they all beat the 17-40 f/4L I have now instead in several ways.
Logged
BJL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5163


« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2006, 04:45:42 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I'm not sure their lens development has actually slowed down during their big DSLR push, there has been a steady stream of new lenses over the last 3-4 years.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed Canon has been vigorously developing EF lenses, but not in the direction of significantly increasing resolution, even by the amount needed just to handle well the 5.5 micron pixel spacing that the D2X shows is quite workable in a DSLR. Instead Canon has been adding IS, offering wider zoom ranges (17-40L, 24-105L, 28-300L) faster AF (85/1.2L) and reducing size and weight with DO and with f/4L lenses along side existing f/2.8L options (17-40/4L, 24-105/4L, 400/4L DO).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 04:46:19 PM by BJL » Logged
Ray
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8908


« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2006, 05:54:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Many people are saying the 1DsII only has marginal extra quality over the 5D.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=59986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed! Over at Rob Galbraith's forum there are some people even claiming the 5D produces better quality images than the 1Ds2, but I have great difficulty in believing the objectivity of such reports.

What does seem clear, however, is that any resolution advantage of the 1Ds2 is so slight that professional photographers have great difficulty demonstrating the fact over the internet, which seems very odd to me because I have no difficulty demonstrating the superior resolving power of the 20D compared to the 5D, even using a medium quality lens like the Canon 100-400 IS at 400mm.

Using the same lens from the same position with the 20D, 5D and 1Ds2, then cropping the 5D and 1Ds2 images to the smae FOV as the 20D shot, we would be comparing  8mp (20D) to 4.8mp (5D) to 6.4mp (1Ds2).

Now there's no doubt in my mind that in the above situation, the 8mp of the 20D produces better detail than the 4.8mp of the 5D. However, considering the very marginal difference between the 5D and 1Ds2, I would expect a similar very marginal difference between the 6.4mp of the 1Ds2 and the 8mp of the 20D.

I can't test it of course because I don't own a 1Ds2, but in principle 2 very marginal improvements add up to one bigger and more definite marginal improvement.

I therefore conclude that, if Canon offers us a 20mp upgrade to the 1Ds2, which will have the same pixel density as the 20D and 30D, those folks at Rob Galbraith's site will then be able to declare quite definitely that the new 20mp 1Ds3 produces better image quality than the 5D   .
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8210



WWW
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2006, 06:37:57 AM »
ReplyReply

As a happy d2x owner, what would it take for Canon to convince me to switch to a next gen 1ds (that I believe will be called 2DS)? In order of importance:

- 16 useful bits enabling smooth transitions to blown highlights,
- significantly better wide angle lenses,
- a much improved interface/ergonomics with less weight,
- no more than 6000 US$,
- around 22 MP.

Perhaps I am not alone, and perhaps Canon has been considering these things?

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
Gary Ferguson
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 524


WWW
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2006, 09:15:56 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
In DC Watch's interview with Canon Japan's Mr. Murano from their Image Communication Products Operations at PMA 2006 in Florida, he said the following:


The image quality of the original EF 85/1.2L is considered very high so we chose only to improve the AF speed, shape of aperture diaphrams etc. In order to bring the image quality to a higher lever, overall improvement to the complete EF lens lineup including all fixed focal length lenses is being planned by Canon. Currently, there're many A3 size printers targeting high-end photo enthusiasts, as well as many large format printers specifically designed for professionals. In order to avoid conspicuous aberration when outputing images from the afore-mentioned equipment, there's a need for us to tackle the maintenance of our EF lenses.

That's got to be one of the most significant things I've read in a long time, and it makes me a lot more confident about my investment in the Canon system.

The specific reference to A3 and large format printers seems to exclude any PR fluff about generalised long-term improvements. It nails the issue squarely. It's an attributed quote from within Canon that's absolutely explicit. They recognise that the traditional enlargement range of 35mm cameras is changing, A3 is the new 8"x10", and to meet that challenge they need to offer better optics, especially amongst the wider focal lengths.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 5 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad