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Author Topic: CANON 1DS Mark lll  (Read 44390 times)
Tim Gray
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« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2006, 10:44:35 AM »
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One things that no one seems to have mentioned here when discussing how they think that the 1d and 1ds lines will be combined is the price.  I'm not totally current on my figures, but I know that the 1Ds II is signifigantly more than the Mk II N (thousands more!).  The 1d and its line is aimed straight up at PJs and the like, often times a very tight-budget group.  There's a reason you see so many using D200s and 20Ds, they just can't afford better.  Now, if you combine lines that ever further away from feasable for many working pros.

Thoughts?
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As long as you're willing to come to Toronto to collect, I'll bet a beer that the new one serries "3" is within 10% of the initial price of the 1ds2.
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DiaAzul
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« Reply #61 on: August 15, 2006, 02:55:47 PM »
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As long as you're willing to come to Toronto to collect, I'll bet a beer that the new one serries "3" is within 10% of the initial price of the 1ds2.
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that's an interesting hypothesis. I am not sure how much longer Canon can continue to maintain its approximate 50% premium pricing over Nikon. Admittedly, Canon has some plus features but the current pricing of the 5D vc D200 and 1DsII versus D2Xs is starting to look expensive on a practical feature for feature basis. Having bought into Canon early on and 'locked' in to the system it is difficult to change, however, if I was looking again to by a new camera then Nikon has a stronger value for money offering than Canon.

If Canon does maintain the current pricing then the new 1DsII replacement needs to be damned good.
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John Camp
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« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2006, 04:23:12 PM »
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BTW, my guess is that the name will be Canon EOS 1DV or 1VD because: <snip>

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I am prepared to absolutely guarantee that it won't be called the 1VD.  

JC
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jani
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2006, 03:03:38 AM »
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that's an interesting hypothesis. I am not sure how much longer Canon can continue to maintain its approximate 50% premium pricing over Nikon.
... or how long Nikon can continue to maintain its 20% premium pricing over Canon.

Admittedly, Nikon has some plus features, but the current pricing of the D2Xs vs 1D MkII N, D200 vs 30D and D70s vs 350D is starting to look expensive on a practical feature for feature basis.

(...)

See how easily it is to twist the argument around?

Canon and Nikon have probably deliberately made products that aren't easy to compare on a feature for feature basis, and which don't compete directly on price, either.
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Jan
mtomalty
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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2006, 10:16:12 AM »
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Quote from:
I am prepared to absolutely guarantee that it won't be called the 1VD.[/quote

I agree. I think the more widely accepted term in todays culture is STD,not VD!

EOS-1 STD
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Olivier_G
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« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2006, 06:18:46 AM »
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Just a quick note to say that the 1Ds2 will be 2 years old, which means a 2.5x CPU speed increase following Moore's law: Canon can make a 22MP @ 8i/s for example (from 16.7 @ 4i/s)...
This would be the right performance level at the right time to unify the 1D/1Ds lines, and leverage higher volumes to aggressively reduce price at the same time (a single $5000 body?).
Don't you think?

Olivier
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jani
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« Reply #66 on: August 17, 2006, 01:58:13 PM »
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Just a quick note to say that the 1Ds2 will be 2 years old, which means a 2.5x CPU speed increase following Moore's law: Canon can make a 22MP @ 8i/s for example (from 16.7 @ 4i/s)...
Moore's law (as it is) says nothing about speed increase.

Also, it's not a law per se, it's an observation that held true for a bunch of years, and it's become an industry driver/motivator.

The original statement was:

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The complexity for minimum component costs has increased at a rate of roughly a factor of two per year ... Certainly over the short term this rate can be expected to continue, if not to increase. Over the longer term, the rate of increase is a bit more uncertain, although there is no reason to believe it will not remain nearly constant for at least 10 years. That means by 1975, the number of components per integrated circuit for minimum cost will be 65,000. I believe that such a large circuit can be built on a single wafer.

Afterwards, observations told us that the increase of transistors per die area was 100% per 18 months.

While transistor density does have a strong correlation with performance, that correlation is not 1:1.

So, what should we expect, if Moore's law was a law of physics, and not merely an observation and industry driver?

Well, 18 months after the 1Ds MkII, we should then have expected a 33 Mpx chip in 135 format. Or, 36 months after the 1Ds, we should have expected a 44 Mpx chip.

But performance (readout speed, among other things) is hard to correlate without very detailed knowledge about CMOS sensor technology.
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Jan
Olivier_G
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« Reply #67 on: August 17, 2006, 02:09:48 PM »
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Jani, you are quite right.
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But performance (readout speed, among other things) is hard to correlate without very detailed knowledge about CMOS sensor technology.
Agreed. Meanwhile, the Red One with its 11MP at 60fps provides some hints about what can be achieved today with a CMOS sensor. Interesting, isn't it?  

Olivier
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jani
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« Reply #68 on: August 17, 2006, 03:37:50 PM »
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Jani, you are quite right.
Agreed. Meanwhile, the Red One with its 11MP at 60fps provides some hints about what can be achieved today with a CMOS sensor. Interesting, isn't it? 
Mind you, the Red One still isn't available for delivery, and it was promised for fall 2005 ...

It's a bit like the Mamiya ZD in that regard, only that the competition seems absent.
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Jan
jrlennox_01
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« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2007, 10:19:54 AM »
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Regardless of the rumors, Canon is overdue for another Big Gun to replace the current 1Ds Mark II. My concern is image quality. Mamiya and Hasselblad have their megapixels spread over a medium format sensor. If you take 22-24 million pixels and divide them over a 24x36mm sensor, you have to have smaller pixels to make the fit. This sounds like it will increase image noise unless it is compensated by noise reduction. Does anyone care to speculate on how Canon is going to make this work?

Also, the rumors all seem to indicate that "Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible? My opininion is this can't be or else a lot of serious photographers are going to get really angry. Thoughtful comments highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 10:20:30 AM by jrlennox_01 » Logged
ddolde
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« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2007, 10:38:40 AM »
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Bet they don't call it the Canon H-IV either.
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Graeme Nattress
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« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2007, 12:28:16 PM »
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Design work on RED one started around December 2005, so can't see how we could promise a fall 2005 delivery!

Instead, the schedule was "first images in the fall", which we did 2 weeks early at IBC 2006, and camera in "the new year", which is 2007.

It's actually a 12mp sensor active area, at 60fps. The sensor itself is larger still at 4900x2580, but some of those pixels are used for black level calibration etc.

Graeme

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Jani, you are quite right.
Agreed. Meanwhile, the Red One with its 11MP at 60fps provides some hints about what can be achieved today with a CMOS sensor. Interesting, isn't it? 

Olivier
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John Sheehy
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« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2007, 04:11:40 PM »
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Regardless of the rumors, Canon is overdue for another Big Gun to replace the current 1Ds Mark II. My concern is image quality. Mamiya and Hasselblad have their megapixels spread over a medium format sensor. If you take 22-24 million pixels and divide them over a 24x36mm sensor, you have to have smaller pixels to make the fit. This sounds like it will increase image noise unless it is compensated by noise reduction. Does anyone care to speculate on how Canon is going to make this work?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really don't believe that putting more pixels in a FF sensor will increase image or subject noise; only pixel noise.  Take a crop from a DSLR the physical size of a full image taken from a tiny-sensor prosumer both of the same area, with the same subject, true focal length, Av, Tv, and ISO, view at the same size, and I don't think you'll find much lacking in the P&S.  This "small pixels are bad" sentiment is misguided, IMO.  Small *sensors* mean lots of shot noise.  Big sensors with tiny pixels do not; not at the image or subject level.
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pss
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« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2007, 04:14:32 PM »
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as anyone cared to look when this thread was started?
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David Anderson
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« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2007, 04:25:52 PM »
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Also, the rumors all seem to indicate that "Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible? My opininion is this can't be or else a lot of serious photographers are going to get really angry. Thoughtful comments highly appreciated.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would change my lenses over to a new mount if there was a solid improvement in quality, if Canon could close the gap between medium format digital and 35mm with a new body costing the same as the 1DSII it would be for the work I do anyway, a very hard system to beat..
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Danijela D. Karic
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« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2007, 04:33:12 PM »
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Any addition to Canon's EF 50mm 1.2 ready for PMA?

CANON 1DS Mark lll at PMA?

I don't think so!!! perhaps Leica M9,

[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']VIVA LAS RUMORS[/span]

Regards
Danijela
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BJL
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« Reply #76 on: February 20, 2007, 06:12:42 PM »
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"Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible?
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Where do you get the idea of possible lens mount incompatibility? As far as I know, Canon has simply said that they intend to make some new very high quality lenses (wides at a guess) to help get the best out of its high resolution "full frame" sensors. Canon is talking about its current 24x36mm format, so there is not the slightest hint that the Canon lens mount needs to be changed to make a few higher quality lenses for that format. (In fact, there are apparently some Zeiss and Nikon wides that do a better job when adapted to EF mount than Canon's own wides.)

In particular, Canon's comments have had no hint of moving to a new larger format.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 06:13:12 PM by BJL » Logged
david o
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« Reply #77 on: February 20, 2007, 09:34:33 PM »
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Improvement I'm waiting for :
16 bits
4:3

16MP is enough, don't mind for more for sure.

And a kind of removal back for upgrade.

Also removal prism like nikon F4.
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Shaula
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« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2007, 12:49:38 AM »
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Regardless of the rumors, Canon is overdue for another Big Gun to replace the current 1Ds Mark II. My concern is image quality. Mamiya and Hasselblad have their megapixels spread over a medium format sensor. If you take 22-24 million pixels and divide them over a 24x36mm sensor, you have to have smaller pixels to make the fit. This sounds like it will increase image noise unless it is compensated by noise reduction. Does anyone care to speculate on how Canon is going to make this work?

Also, the rumors all seem to indicate that "Canon is busy making lenses to fit" the new camera. Does this mean that current lenses will be incompatible? My opininion is this can't be or else a lot of serious photographers are going to get really angry. Thoughtful comments highly appreciated.

Thanks,
Joe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101914\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Joe, it's entirely plausible that Canon is also concerned about IQ and producing an elite-level camera that will increase mp's while improving resolution, DR, and s/n ratio, which is why their big gun is overdue.  I would much prefer that they nail it and give us a great product that takes it to a higher level, instead of moving a product just because it has more megapixels but doesn't provide noticeably-improved imaging capabilities.

And no, I have no ideas on how they will accomplish this (NOT a gearhead).  But 15 years ago people were saying that 33.3 mHz was pushing the limitations of PC processor clock-speeds.  How many gigahertz are we up to now?

I've read it a hundred times:  "I don't care about more megapixels, I care about more DR and better noise reduction."  Maybe that's why Canon hasn't released their top model up to now.  We can only hope that when it arrives, it will have been worth the wait and will knock our collective socks off.  Until then, the Ds2 is not exactly chopped liver!
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2007, 02:47:22 AM »
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One thing that surprises me in this thread is the repeated use of the name 1dsIII, implying that only the sensor will be different.

Am I the only one to feel that the is a lot to improve on the 1ds series in terms of ergonomics,... and that the market should rather pressure Canon to release a 2ds instead of a 1dsIII?

Cheers,
Bernard
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