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Author Topic: Luminous Landscape Non-Commercial?  (Read 19868 times)
popnfresh
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« on: March 13, 2006, 03:20:37 PM »
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I think Luminous Landscape is an indispensible resource for serious fine art photographers. But I'm a little taken aback with Michael Reichmann's insistence that his site is "completely non-commercial". It seems to me that any site that sells DVDs, workshops and books is highly commercial. I think a better description is that LL doesn't accept advertising and therefore is not unduly pressured to lavish preferential treatment on sponsors. Whatever prejudices Mr Reichmann may have, and I think he has his as indeed I have mine, are personal and probably not the result of commercial relationships. That's not really the same as being non-commercial.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2006, 03:35:46 PM »
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nm
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mikeseb
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2006, 03:44:04 PM »
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You are semantically correct. But what does it matter? To quote Mr Spock: "A difference which makes no difference IS no difference."
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michael sebastian
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2006, 04:26:18 PM »
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It's not a big deal, just somewhat disingenuous.

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You are semantically correct. But what does it matter? To quote Mr Spock: "A difference which makes no difference IS no difference."
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macgyver
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2006, 04:40:50 PM »
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I think I agree with popnfresh, although it doesn't particuarlly bug me.
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ricwis
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2006, 04:42:02 PM »
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So help me here as I can get confused easily.  You've been registered a year and a half and this topic is your 2nd post or is it your 1st? What useful purpose does this type of post serve other than to try and judge the site and Michael as if you are somehow holier or are a nit picker.

Try getting some more things to do that would be a bigger deal and try not to fret about the "somewhat disingenuous".  Better yet, go to most of the other sites that plaster their pages with ads, pop-ups, and just about every other annoying "commercial" junk and see what the meaning of commercial is.
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Rich Wisler
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2006, 05:45:24 PM »
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So help me here as I can get confused easily.  You've been registered a year and a half and this topic is your 2nd post or is it your 1st? What useful purpose does this type of post serve other than to try and judge the site and Michael as if you are somehow holier or are a nit picker.

Try getting some more things to do that would be a bigger deal and try not to fret about the "somewhat disingenuous".  Better yet, go to most of the other sites that plaster their pages with ads, pop-ups, and just about every other annoying "commercial" junk and see what the meaning of commercial is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I seem to have touched a nerve. To some people apparently, Michael Reichmann is beyond any criticism whatsoever. Let me know when he starts walking on water. I want to be there to photograph it.
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kbolin
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 06:07:19 PM »
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Michael is in business... to make $$.  I never read his comments as "I'm here to run this as a non-profit gesture".  

I for one find it very refreshing that Michael has resisted the temptation to allow commercial advertising or paid endorsements on his site which given the success of this site I'm sure he has been approached numerous times.  This site is so clean and a useful source of good information because there is not the annoyance of such commercial advertising.

Michael is not beyond criticision (I don't always agree with him)... but when one "reaches" to such lengths to find fault I can only assume one is perplexed where else to look.

Keep up the good work Michael.  (and no I'm not waiting for him to walk on water)

Kelly
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popnfresh
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2006, 06:14:05 PM »
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Michael is in business... to make $$.  I never read his comments as "I'm here to run this as a non-profit gesture". 

I for one find it very refreshing that Michael has resisted the temptation to allow commercial advertising or paid endorsements on his site which given the success of this site I'm sure he has been approached numerous times.  This site is so clean and a useful source of good information because there is not the annoyance of such commercial advertising.

Michael is not beyond criticision (I don't always agree with him)... but when one "reaches" to such lengths to find fault I can only assume one is perplexed where else to look.

Keep up the good work Michael.  (and no I'm not waiting for him to walk on water)

Kelly
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I agree with you. Michael is in business to make money. I applaud him and I love Luminous Landscape. And I appreciate the absence of advertising on his commercial, money-making site. I hope he's making a good living from it. He deserves it.
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Anon E. Mouse
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2006, 06:20:00 PM »
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Well, that depends on what you mean by "commercial." The National Geographic Society is not commercial, but they make a ton of money. The contents of magazines are "editiorial", but the author, publisher, printer, and a host of others also profit from it. I would say this site is "non-commercial" in the sense that it is not pushing products through advertising - obviously the reviews can promote products and companies seem to send review samples in hopes of a free review. But likewise, they can also be roasted (although I don't rarely see that here).

Naturally, there are costs. Why do you expect to get something for nothing? I find the idea that people should give away their efforts for simply the satisfaction of doing it disgusting. Photographers get paid very little as it is. The internet is not making the situation any easier. I am waiting for the day when people place enough value in the work of others that they don't mind paying for it. However, in the world of Walmarts and free internet access, I am not going to hold my breath.
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popnfresh
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2006, 06:50:33 PM »
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Well, that depends on what you mean by "commercial." The National Geographic Society is not commercial, but they make a ton of money. The contents of magazines are "editiorial", but the author, publisher, printer, and a host of others also profit from it. I would say this site is "non-commercial" in the sense that it is not pushing products through advertising - obviously the reviews can promote products and companies seem to send review samples in hopes of a free review. But likewise, they can also be roasted (although I don't rarely see that here).

Naturally, there are costs. Why do you expect to get something for nothing? I find the idea that people should give away their efforts for simply the satisfaction of doing it disgusting. Photographers get paid very little as it is. The internet is not making the situation any easier. I am waiting for the day when people place enough value in the work of others that they don't mind paying for it. However, in the world of Walmarts and free internet access, I am not going to hold my breath.
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I agree. Running Luminous Landscape can't be cheap. I say, let Michael make money any way he can from LL. I have no qualms at all about Michael making money. Being commercial is not a bad thing. Not at all.

The NGS is non-commercial in the sense that it's a tax exempt, not-for-profit organization. In that regard it's less "commercial" than Luminous Landscape despite the fact that National Geographic magazine runs tons of advertising and LL runs zero advertising. But I have to say I'd much rather cut a check for one of Michael's photo expeditions than donate to the NGS.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2006, 07:30:40 PM »
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I seem to have touched a nerve. To some people apparently, Michael Reichmann is beyond any criticism whatsoever. Let me know when he starts walking on water. I want to be there to photograph it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60241\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, just seems to be an odd choice of a first post.  First impressions and all that.

Any particular reason it bothers you enough to post about it?
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popnfresh
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2006, 09:03:41 PM »
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No, just seems to be an odd choice of a first post.  First impressions and all that.

Any particular reason it bothers you enough to post about it?
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It's not really first impressions, since I've visited the site several times a week for years. I just never posted before.

It doesn't bother me, particularly. It merely seemed strange to me that a site that's engaged in commerce would refer to itself as non-commercial, and I was curious to see how people would react if I brought it up.
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Pelao
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2006, 07:57:51 AM »
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Like all things, it is important to clearly define the context. Reichman does not simply state that the site is non-commercial and then leave it at that.
He says:

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All of this content is provided to you without charge and without any form of advertising. The Luminous Landscape is 100% non-commercial. Always has been, always will be! There are no pop-up ads and no hidden commercials. We have no business relationships with any manufacturers or suppliers. We personally buy almost everything that we test. Occasionally items are taken on loan for testing, but always without favour or obligation.

His definition is that there is no paid advertising, no direct paid for (in cash or goods) link with any company or product. His definition is made considering other photography sites.

By this definition, he is correct. He has clearly defined what he means. Any of us may disagree with his definition, but tough, it's his site.

As far as I can see, he sticks to his 'promise' in this regard. I like it. The cash generated by the sale of the LLVJ, prints, books and workshops offsets the cost of running the site - and all of these things are 100% photography.

For me, it's a pleasant formula and a non-issue.

Now back to photography.
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P3wiz
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2006, 09:18:16 AM »
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Keep up the good work Michael.  (and no I'm not waiting for him to walk on water)

Kelly
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I know that Michael can walk on water. It is just frozen at the time.  
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Hank
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2006, 03:26:17 PM »
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Michael's hardly out the door and the trolling starts.  Now, where did he put that Big Yawn smiley?.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2006, 05:00:43 PM »
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This site has been a valuable resource for years, and the information is provided for free, and without annoying CMs poping around all the time. I don't really see how you can complain as a visitor. How does the money Michael makes on this affect you?

Those who could consider complaining are the writers who provide content for this site for free (I have been one in the past), and contribute to Michael's ability to purchase his new P45.

However, I don't remember complaining about it, and I haven't seen other authors complaining about it either. Nobody has forced us to provide content for LL, and we got a certain visibility in return that we considered valuable enough.

The day we start to feel that Michael's over-doing it, we'll find other outlets for our contents (a few credible ones already exist), but LL is still today an easy way to reach a large audience of photographers in the English language.

As a final remark, if you're not happy about the place, why not stopping coming over, or even better, why not creating your own website? I am writting this with no agressivity in mind. There are many sites I don't bother visiting anymore.

Regards,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
macgyver
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2006, 11:02:52 PM »
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I dont read what the fellow said as anti-LL, it was simply an observation on the man's wording.  You people need to stop reacting so hottly to everything.
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Pelao
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2006, 07:58:08 AM »
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I dont read what the fellow said as anti-LL, it was simply an observation on the man's wording.  You people need to stop reacting so hottly to everything.
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Yes, hot replies can only leade to further antagonism. On the other hand, the original post could be perceived as somewhat antagonistic in it's opening approach.

I have no problem with the viewpoint, but I am touchy about things being in their full context.
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David Mantripp
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2006, 11:30:59 AM »
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The site disclaimer states:

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This site is completely non-commercial. It currently has more than 2,500 pages containing articles, tutorials, product reviews and photographs all with no commercial advertisements. The site is not affiliated with or beholden to any company or organization.

I guess a lawyer would phrase it slightly more carefully (and use 100 times more words, most of which were last seen in the Magna Carta), but it is clear to me at least that the second sentence qualifies the first.

Basically, it is an independent, self-funding website. You can choose to support it by buying services such as DVD subscriptions, books, or joining LL or associated workshops.

I think to split hairs (and co-incidenatlly I've beem doing this sort of stuff all day, yawn, yawn), I'd replace the disclaimer with something like:

 "This site receives no commercial advertising. It currently has more than 2,500 freely accessible pages containing articles, tutorials, product reviews and photographs. The site is not affiliated with or beholden to any company or organization. You can choose to support it by buying LL Video Journal subscriptions and back issues, LL books, or joining workshops."

Compare and contrast with http://www.outbackphoto.com/ --- close to illiterate content riddled with adverts, many of which are for products the site endorses...
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