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Author Topic: Mourning the loss of a great forum...  (Read 127416 times)
peter_c
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2006, 03:31:58 PM »
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Something good was happening in the Medium Format section of the RG forums.

Real professionals that work on large, pressured projects were sharing.

Technique, style, wants, desires, headaches, humor, even fears were openly discussed.

In my career I have never seen anything like it and I can't begin to explain how rare that is.

To me the forums are a nice way to share, but with no disrespect, any forum is just an empty room until people come in and add value.

James Russell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It was only this morning I realized what had happened. The value I and many others got out of the "rambling" aspect of the forum was invaluable.  Sure there was a ton of techno based knowledge but for me it was more the colour, wit and intangible experiences.  Rare indeed.  I've let the RG mods know I believe their forum is now the poorer, with the many significant departures.
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RobertJ
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2006, 05:14:54 PM »
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Yup, I still post in the RG forums, and have not been banned yet, (I haven't talked about Jesus...yet), but I think the forum is almost useless without James there.  

Another thing, is that every few posts seem to be edited by Rob Galbraith in one way or another.  

Anyway, it's still a great forum, but going downhill, IMO.  I'm waiting for the next James Russell to show up.
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James Russell
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2006, 06:17:34 AM »
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edited by James Russell
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 06:34:23 AM by James Russell » Logged
JJP
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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2006, 12:22:08 PM »
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Quote...James Russell
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To me the forums are a nice way to share, but with no disrespect, any forum is just an empty room until people come in and add value.
One way forum users could add even more value is to police themselves.  What I mean is:  the forum "rules" should be looked after by the owner as is status quo.  However, I'd suggest that each of the forums have an "etiquette" which users would be responsible for moderating.  For example, each user would be given demarite points and if a user wrote something which offended "X" number of users, then that user is gone for a month.  If the same user wrote something which offended "XX" number of users, then your gone for a year.  And if the same user offended "XXX" number of users, then you're toast....permanent gone.  Since the users would be policing themselves, then that would take some of the responsibility away from the forum owner, and so some of what would normally be considered as rules could be placed in the etiquette category.
Of course, none of this means a hill of beans unless the board owner would agree to it.
any yeas?
jj
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JJ
Bobtrips
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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2006, 12:50:31 PM »
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Quote...James Russell

One way forum users could add even more value is to police themselves.  What I mean is:  the forum "rules" should be looked after by the owner as is status quo.  However, I'd suggest that each of the forums have an "etiquette" which users would be responsible for moderating.  For example, each user would be given demerit points and if a user wrote something which offended "X" number of users, then that user is gone for a month.  If the same user wrote something which offended "XX" number of users, then your gone for a year.  And if the same user offended "XXX" number of users, then you're toast....permanent gone.  Since the users would be policing themselves, then that would take some of the responsibility away from the forum owner, and so some of what would normally be considered as rules could be placed in the etiquette category.
Of course, none of this means a hill of beans unless the board owner would agree to it.
any yeas?
jj
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I think a version of this should work well on most forums.

Tweak the idea a little.  Let the site owner assign more 'weight' to trusted users.  And zero weight to people who cause problems.  

The final decision to ban should probably be left in the hands of the site owner but a system along these lines would largely take the site owner off the hot seat and give the users some feeling of control.
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BJL
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2006, 01:28:04 PM »
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Quote...James Russell

One way forum users could add even more value is to police themselves... each user would be given demarite points and if a user wrote something which offended "X" number of users, then that user is gone for a month.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
One fear is that in some forums, just saying too many nice things about brands other than the market leader offends many forum participants who are blindly loyal to that market leader, and could get one "voted off the forum". As a user of an Olympus DSLR (and Pentax manual focus SLRs and Macintosh computers), I would be fearful of "mob rule".
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 01:30:02 PM by BJL » Logged
James Russell
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2006, 11:41:25 PM »
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One fear is that in some forums, just saying too many nice things about brands other than the market leader offends many forum participants who are blindly loyal to that market leader, and could get one "voted off the forum". As a user of an Olympus DSLR (and Pentax manual focus SLRs and Macintosh computers), I would be fearful of "mob rule".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60780\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Of the hundreds of e-mails I have received lately the overriding theme has been about telling the truth.

Everyone that has emailed me has been kind and supportive but something that is repeated numerous times is the number of people that are fearful to publicly post their experiences.

Some just don't like censorship, or would be embarrassed to be banned from a forum.  

Some have heard that if they protest their IP address could be blocked by a forum and they rely on these forums for new thoughts and fixes.

Others are worried about being shouted down by other participants but more than a few are worried about how they will be perceived by the manufacturers.

I won't say they fear manufacturer retribution, (though a few have voiced this), but most are just worried if they complain loudly they will find themselves in the back of the queue for repairs and/or tech assistance.

Valid or not that last point is a concern.

After all digital cameras are expensive and few can wait weeks or months to get a resolve to an issue, so rather than complain, or go public, they just hold their thoughts to themselves, or worse post only positive experiences hoping a manufacturer will notice and  give them better service.

What I believe is needed is a no fear forum where posts can be shared, fears can be put aside.

Lately I have seen proposals of building a forum that is private, or underground, where a select group can share and speak thier mind.

Maybe that's the safest way, but how sad that all that knowledge and experience goes virtually unheard.  

Are we potentially working ourselves into a position where the only information we receive about digital capture is well thought out PR releases?

Still I beleive that from where we are today, vs. where we were a week ago, we are all the poorer.



JR
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 12:04:29 AM by James Russell » Logged
KristerH
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2006, 01:59:20 AM »
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Still I beleive that from where we are today, vs. where we were a week ago, we are all the poorer.
JR
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Hi all.

I so much agree with james.

I am a pro photographer who works in the countryside of sweden. My days are spent shooting
ordinary things and ordinary people. There is no one to discuss my work with and I have to
go to camera dealers if I have any questions. Everything that is about practical pro photographer stuff I have to figure out myself .
Then suddenly I found this place on RG forum. Amazing. It was like the best photographers in the world had suddenly decided to build their studio in my small town of sweden. I could stopp by every morning before work and hang out for an hour or so.
There around the coffee table where Mark and James and all the other photographers discussing real world problems. If I had any questions I could ask and they would always answer.

I learned so much in this "cyberstudio".
It became very clear to me a couple of weeks ago when visiting the Hasselblad world tour in Stockholm. I was asking questions and suddenly the pro hasselblad guy sayd.
- Man, you really know what questions to ask. You must be a long time user of MF backs.
I smiled and just thougt  
- No, but I know Mark and James.

So please, dont  hide  this info behind barbed wire and fences.


Reg

Krister Halvars


sorry about my english. it is not my nativ language
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dazzajl
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« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2006, 04:07:34 AM »
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What I believe is needed is a no fear forum where posts can be shared, fears can be put aside.

I've yet to see any manufacturer bias here, unless I'm missing something. Some people do tend to state views pretty forcefully but I think we're all big enough to deal with that.

And of course setting up a forum is not all that hard to do yourself, if you have a very specific vision you would like to see become a reality. Getting a good user base is the hard bit I guess.
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JJP
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« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2006, 06:25:08 AM »
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Quote by Dazzajl
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And of course setting up a forum is not all that hard to do yourself
Quote by James Russell
Quote
Lately I have seen proposals of building a forum that is private, or underground, where a select group can share and speak thier mind
IMO, it would take major sacrifice, not to mention dollars, expertise & time to set up your own forum.
What we currently have is the cats meow...as long as users respect each other and respect the forum owner's rules....which is not unreasonable.
Take this analogy:  Have you ever seen a camera that did not come with an owner's/operation manual?  Of course not.  And so, even a private or underground forum would have some form of "manual" ie..rules for its users.
jj
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JJ
michael
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2006, 10:26:43 AM »
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James and all,

I have been offline for the past 8 days, and missed the furor at Galbraith.

It saddens me that it happened. But, I have no desire to jump into that fray at this late date.

What I do wish to do is propose to the medium format community that they are always welcome here. The only constraints that I put on discussions on these forums is that people act like adults, and not engage in either slander or outright stupidity.

If people wish I can also set up private discussion forums that are password protected. It all depends on what people want.

Michael
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BJL
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2006, 11:44:29 AM »
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The only constraints that I put on discussions on these forums is that people act like adults, and not engage in either slander or outright stupidity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60819\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, and I am glad that you even allow us all a quota of grumpiness and stupidity too!

That approach is all that has ever been needed here. The only thing I might want to add to any forum I use is personal "kill" or "ignore" lists. But at this site, posters who I prefer to ignore are extremely rare, and tend to disappear fairly quickly (whether banned or bored, I do not care.)
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Wim van Velzen
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2006, 02:03:33 PM »
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I have been following the RG mf-back forum and the forum here and learn a lot - even if I won't be able to buy a mf-back within the next two years (or thereabout).

Please, whenever someone makes a private discussion forum on this topic, don't let it be just for the owners of a mf-back, but also for all those who want to go that route in the future!


But why not get this forum here even better? Always enough to talk about What would Michael shoot  
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digitaldog
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2006, 03:14:14 PM »
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Both Jeff Schewe and I were banned. I think I posted several thousand posts (most color management advise). Rob is super political! This may sound like the "grassy knoll conspiracy" theory but I think he's backed money wise for the forums and who knows what else and is far more interested in political motivations backed by the big bucks than anything else. I found it interesting he just wrote a glowing "review" of Aperture 1.1 when I know for a fact no one outside of Apple has a copy. Then I see ads for it on his site. Censorship is unamerican (well OK, he's in Canada <g>).

Ever notice how many posts are locked or deleted over there? It's astounding. Let's bring folks over here (it's a far better site and the forum software since the update seems rock solid).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2006, 06:17:15 PM »
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So it seems the Galbraith forums are down. Coincidence or bad garma?
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Andrew Rodney
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2006, 07:10:29 PM »
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Were you one of the "crazy people" RG mentions?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2006, 07:10:47 PM »
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Another good site for pro's (which unfortunately doesn't get much traffic) is the PDN site. They too are discussing the Galbraith censorship issues:

http://www.pdngallery.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ulti...ic;f=5;t=001988
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2006, 07:26:31 PM »
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Were you one of the "crazy people" RG mentions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=60833\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Who me? I didn't see any post about "Crazy People" although I'm pretty crazy <g>

I can't even get onto the forums know. Are they down?
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Andrew Rodney
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stevenrk
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2006, 07:38:37 PM »
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Agree so strongly with what has been said.  As someone listening in, it was often a fascinating conversation.  Genuinely challenging and illuminating on so many fronts.   A conversation amongst a group making photographs all over the world that was well spirited (and hope sometimes pun intended), thoughtful, insightful, and often inspiring.  Quite stunning.  

As I can read here, the loss even greater for other working photographers who had found an oasis of reason and solid advice -- with often astounding work to back it up -- to the most complex of questions in a profession seemingly growing ever more complex and opaque.

And such a needless loss.  And agree with James Russell that we shouldn't ascribe improper motives to anyone.  Bad judgement, yes.

I think Michael's offer is a very generous one.  To the extent a separate forum is set up on LL -- rather than just seeing if people will migrate to the existing ones here -- I would add my voice to hoping that it is not one open only to a select list of pros.  Certainly, one can appreciate the temptation to do just that.  But, I think the RG forum at its best benefitted greatly -- was enriched -- by the voice of amateurs, students, and just plain people enjoying such a high level of discussion, thought, images.  Without us and that mix (I include myself in at least a couple of these categories) I think it would have been a less interesting conversation.  Less interesting, not in terms of technical information or questions of technique, but for the contribution of the different perspectives, and on occasion interesting questions that a pro wouldn't have thought of or had the time to ask -- but once engaged found value in both the question and the conversation about it.  Besides the fact that it seemed that part of the pleasure of it for those who contributed most was how many they were engaging and teaching.  And certainly appreciated tremendously for the many of us listening in and gaining knowledge and inspiration from the spirited banter.  

Steven
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digitaldog
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2006, 07:49:32 PM »
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Censorship is just wrong. I'm seriously considering putting a link to this and the other sites that have discussed Rob's inappropriate behavior on my web site (I get a few thousands hits a week). Or maybe emailing his sponsors. Or should I just ignore this bonehead?
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Andrew Rodney
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