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Author Topic: 12 DB:s and SLR:s side by side  (Read 16744 times)
Sami Kulju
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« on: April 13, 2006, 04:31:08 AM »
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Hi!

Today I finally added the Imacon 123 -file to the tabletop-set in our site.

http://www.studiosamikulju.fi/playground/index.html

We used a long afternoon in my studio to shoot different DB:s and SLR:s with same lightning and same crops.

Itīs not a review or test. Itīs more a playground where You can make Your own examinations by downloading the full-size jpegs.

Cameras and DB:s in the tabletop-set:

1Ds / 1DsMkII / 5D / Aptus17 / Aptus22 / P25 / Mamiya ZD /
Imacon123 / Sinar H54 / LightPhase / H20 / D2X

Regards, Sami
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Sami Kulju / Helsinki - Finland
www.studiosamikulju.fi
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2006, 06:35:22 PM »
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Hi Sami,

Thank you so much for these test results. Very interesting.

I have only checked the jpg so far.

The difference of DoF between the images makes them a bit difficult to compare.

Some files, like that of the 5D for instance, look perhaps a bit over-exposed.

Overall, the DSLRs are much better at preventing moire (although there is some in the 1ds2 file - lower left white area) withouth showing a bit gap in terms of sharpness. I believe less and less in AA filter less solutions...

The ZD might be the worst file overall.

I like the Aptus look better than the Phase one, phase does indeed look a tiny bit painterly.

Comparing the files quickly, my personnal conclusion is that I'll stick to my D2x...  The D2x and the 5D are clearly by far the best value for money IMHO!

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
GregShapps
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2006, 10:46:31 PM »
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I have only looked at the P25  & Aptus 22 JPG's in the Tabletop and I am trying to figure out why the focus seems off or its just very soft looking in the P25 file as compared to the A22.   I am a H25 user and I am kind of wondering what exactly is going on in the P25 file as its just way too soft looking and possibly out of focus.
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Sami Kulju
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2006, 01:18:32 AM »
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I am kind of wondering what exactly is going on in the P25 file as its just way too soft looking and possibly out of focus.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62529\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Greg, have You tried to add unsharping to jpegs? All were developed with unsharping turned off.

About the focus. We shot tabletop-set tethered with all other cameras exept ZD and 5D. So we tried wery hard to fine tune the focus in the same spot for all files. (with the ZD we find later that itīs a bit backfocused and we are sorry about that)

With a heavy stand and mirrors locked up...  Where could the differences come?

Anyway - the purpose for this whole session was not to play with pixels. I would say that these all cameras are so good that itīs up to us to just start shooting.

Just for a perspective we had also Lightphase there. Look and compare it to even 5D. What a progress. And I worked happy with Lightphase for couple of years...

sami
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Sami Kulju / Helsinki - Finland
www.studiosamikulju.fi
Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2006, 11:35:56 AM »
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Sami, thanks to you and your friends for taking the time to produce such an interesting set of comparisons.

I use a P25 and I'm considering upgrading to a P45, but first I'd like see what difference that would make in the final print. Unfortunately I've only been able to find one single shot that's a side by side comparison of the P25 versus the P45. Your exercise may not help my question, but I'm sure it will be invaluable for others, especially the army of prospective ZD buyers! So I congratulate your public spirited efforts to enlighten us all. Thanks again.
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yaya
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2006, 02:30:24 AM »
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I use a P25 and I'm considering upgrading to a P45, but first I'd like see what difference that would make in the final print. Unfortunately I've only been able to find one single shot that's a side by side comparison of the P25 versus the P45.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62573\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gary why won't you call your dealer and ask to test the P45/ Aptus 75 side-by-side with your P25?

Yair (Leaf)
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eronald
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2006, 03:31:04 AM »
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Gary why won't you call your dealer and ask to test the P45/ Aptus 75 side-by-side with your P25?

Yair (Leaf)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dealers seem very frightened of customer comparison tests of digicam products- it's a bit strange as what we are mostly trying to compare is the "look" of the images. I don't know where this reluctance stems from, as the manufacturers are clearly -and justifiably- proud of their product.

Edmund
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2006, 03:32:10 AM »
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Gary why won't you call your dealer and ask to test the P45/ Aptus 75 side-by-side with your P25?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yair, I agree it's the obvious solution, it's just a matter of time and convenience. In other words exactly those things the web was supposed to help us with!
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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2006, 09:37:09 AM »
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My camera of choice is a contax with a P25 back.  I can tell you that this image shown here is not characteristic of a P25 file.  this file looks downright mushy.  My P25/contax files are tack sharp with incredible microdetail.  eleanor


Quote from: BernardLanguillier,Apr 13 2006, 11:35 PM
Hi Sami,


I like the Aptus look better than the Phase one, phase does indeed look a tiny bit painterly.
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yaya
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2006, 03:40:51 PM »
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Yair, I agree it's the obvious solution, it's just a matter of time and convenience. In other words exactly those things the web was supposed to help us with!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Investing in a DB system, in my view, justifies the time and effort required for testing the kit you are interested in.
Our job as manufacturers/ dealers, is to be able to take the time needed to spend with you untill you are comfortable with making a decision based on these tests.
Web reviews and others' experiences are obviously welcome as they may represent other situations and type of work.
Most dealers (at least the ones I work with) will be willing to lend you the latest equipment, or at least spend a few hours with you in your own environment. If they do not feel confident enough in the face of competition, they will ask for my assistence which I will gladly provide.

cheers, yair
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2006, 06:21:42 PM »
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My camera of choice is a contax with a P25 back.  I can tell you that this image shown here is not characteristic of a P25 file.  this file looks downright mushy.  My P25/contax files are tack sharp with incredible microdetail.  eleanor
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62623\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eleonor,

Yep, I also feel that the results of the P25 are not representative of what can be achieved with one. I would be interesting to understand what went wrong this time.

Regards,
Bernard
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RobertJ
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2006, 08:01:20 PM »
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Eleanor and Bernard,

I would think the soft, mushy results are due to the fact that sharpening was turned completely off in C1.  This is different than using Standard(0,0) sharpening.  

I had the same reaction when I opened the Canon files.  They look totally soft and out of focus, but they were processed in DPP with NO sharpening.  I process my Canon files in C1 with Standard/0,0 sharpening, and the difference is very dramatic.  

A file from my 20D/C1 with Standard/0,0 is world's beyond this sample 1Ds2 file with no sharpening.  The Canon files did seem a little out of focus as well.  I'm not sure f/11 was a great choice either.  

But I have one question:  The Leaf Aptus 22 files have a crispy, sharp (well kinda, still looks way out of focus to me) look to them compared to the P25 files.  As someone who has never used Leaf Capture software, was there any sharpening turned on during the RAW conversion?  The Leaf files are very different in terms of sharpness in comparison to the other files IMO.

This test is still awesome, might I add.
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RobertJ
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2006, 08:04:13 PM »
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Hmm, I'm beginning to think the P25 portraits could have been done much better.  Honestly, I think the focus was just missed, and could have been MUCH better.
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Sami Kulju
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2006, 03:03:54 AM »
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Hmm, I'm beginning to think the P25 portraits could have been done much better.  Honestly, I think the focus was just missed, and could have been MUCH better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For Your information T-1000, and for all the others. We developed all the files with the softwares mentioned in the site. And sharpening was turned off for all softwares. This is mentioned in the text too.

Many have argued about the P25-files and the sharpness.
And a hint for the reason comes maybe from a post before. When sharpening is totally off, some files look very soft. And different softwares might do different results too. (When I get home I will anyhow check the files of P25 to see if another file is sharper etc.)

Do You think we would have done better service by sharpening all the files? How much?

Tapletop-set was focused with help of computer since we shot these tethered (exept ZD and 5D).

Portrait-set was shot handheld.

Portraits were mainly taken to see the skincolors and to study how a certain combo can be used handheld. People in the studio get a lot of information both of the backs and also from different camerasystems. Sorry we canīt share this experience since You just have to do it Yourself - itīs the only way.

This was NOT a review or accurate test (this is mentioned several times) of pixels or lenses or microdetail.  I would love to quide You to think also another aspect; how good these all cameras and backs are!

And as Yair said, it should be no problem for You to get cameras for Your own sessions. Just get together, make some calls to Your colleaques and give a try.

Thank You for all the response, and I promise to try answering Your question later too. (Iīm in the cottage 300 miles from home and this gprs is soo slow...)

regards, Sami Kulju
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Sami Kulju / Helsinki - Finland
www.studiosamikulju.fi
JLH
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2006, 05:13:31 AM »
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Yair, I agree it's the obvious solution, it's just a matter of time and convenience. In other words exactly those things the web was supposed to help us with!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62618\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Gary, I use the P45 and the H20. Maybe I can help - just contact me.

www.josefhoflehner.com
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RobertJ
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2006, 09:24:11 PM »
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Sami, I didn't realize the portrait images were a test on skintones/color.  I was just puzzled at the lack of detail even with sharpening OFF.  But now everything is clarified, thanks.
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eronald
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2006, 01:38:39 PM »
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For Your information T-1000, and for all the others. We developed all the files with the softwares mentioned in the site. And sharpening was turned off for all softwares. This is mentioned in the text too.
Do You think we would have done better service by sharpening all the files? How much?

Tapletop-set was focused with help of computer since we shot these tethered (exept ZD and 5D).

Portrait-set was shot handheld.

regards, Sami Kulju
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sami, thank you for sharing your files. Yes, the Canon photos should be converted and sharpened with Canon's own DPP software set to sharpness 3 or 4.

There are two philosophies in sensors these days, with or without low-pass filter . Files that were exposed with a filter MUST be sharpened to get the detail back. I believe that Aptus has no filter, P25 does. Canon has a filter, Leica does not.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2006, 06:56:21 PM »
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I believe that Aptus has no filter, P25 does. Canon has a filter, Leica does not.

Edmund
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Is that right? I was under the impression that the P25 didn't have a AA filter either?

Cheers,
Bernard
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eronald
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2006, 03:29:40 AM »
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Is that right? I was under the impression that the P25 didn't have a AA filter either?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=62871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I apologise, you may be right - anyone here know for certain ?

Mamiya can be shot with and without AA by the way - might be worth compiling a table.

BTW, the nice thing about Canon's DPP is that the built-in sharpening appears to be matched to the AA filter which is why I recommend its use in tests - out of camera images are just not representative of the detail really present in the captures. And I'm not defending Canon here, I hate this softness, it's a major strike against the camera.

Edmund
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RobertJ
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2006, 04:01:12 PM »
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The P25 and just about every other major digital back certainly does not have an AA filter.
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