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Author Topic: K3 inks question (EP 4800)  (Read 4481 times)
JerryL
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« on: May 12, 2006, 10:16:03 PM »
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Hi all,

Other posts (and Epson reps) have suggested that the most effective way to cure prints (resolve outgassing) with K3 inks is to simply lay copy paper on top of them.

Anyone know how many times the paper can be reused for additional prints, and if there's a recommended limit before using new paper?  Or can we simply use the copy paper indefinitely?

Many thanks,
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[span style='color:blue']Jerry[/span]
sgwrx
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2006, 12:33:29 AM »
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R2400 here, on premium luster i place 2 rows of regular cheap inkjet paper on top. then i weigh it down with either the box of 13x19 paper or if 8x10 size paper, about a 1/4 pack of the regular inkjet paper.

after 24hrs i check and notice the paper in contact with the print is wavy. i change it and do the same process for a 2nd 24hr period.  after the 2nd pass, i haven't noticed that the paper is wavy.

i'm trying this right now with velvet fine art. will have to repost tomorrow night to let you know if there is any wavieness (which means it's actually absorbing the 'thinner')

EDIT: so no, i don't use indefintely i throw out the two sets of paper that i go through.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 12:45:00 AM by sgwrx » Logged
Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2006, 09:51:25 AM »
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Both of you:  Does this "curing" technique really get rid of outgassing on Epson papers?  I tried it a number of times with Epson luster and Epson premium glossy, and it didn't fix it; I still got completely unacceptable outgassing within a couple of weeks with the prints in clip frames.  I've run into others who have echoed my experience.  If it's working for you, any idea what you might be doing differently?  (I eventually stopped using Epson papers and went to papers that didn't produce nearly so much outgassing.)

Lisa
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:51:47 AM by nniko » Logged

sgwrx
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2006, 10:38:54 AM »
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in march i framed two luster prints and just have not seen any fogging. these are put-together frames and they are matted.  i'm pretty sure i took a couple of days (like wed. to saturday morn. if i can remember) to get the frames and frame them. maybe that was the difference.

one other thing though, i read once about someone getting a fog with the prints in plastic or poly bags during an outdoor show with bright sun.  my environment has not been above 72 since i framed and it's been dry. maybe temp. has something to do with it.
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2006, 11:41:58 AM »
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I have framed prints with the K3 inks after a 72-hour dry down -- NO copy paper used, just air-dried -- and not had any problems.  However, I live in a low-humidity area, so maybe a 5-day dry-down is possibly more appropriate as a general rule.
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Gene Coggins
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2006, 04:35:04 PM »
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I have framed prints with the K3 inks after a 72-hour dry down -- NO copy paper used, just air-dried -- and not had any problems.  However, I live in a low-humidity area, so maybe a 5-day dry-down is possibly more appropriate as a general rule.
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But Jack, what paper are you printing on? It's the paper that causes the outgassing back to the glass.

There have been very few reports of fine art papers producing this problem because the solvent vehicle can permiate into the paper surface as well as off of the printed surface.

I have hung my 17 X 22" printed Epson Premium Luster Photo Paper prints for a week in moving room temp air 69 and 35 % Rel Humidity and I still get outgassing. These are usually prints at 2880 dpi which means a lot of ink gets laid down on the RC paper surface.

Gene
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2006, 05:03:24 PM »
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In my case, I've tried letting the Epson Premium Glossy & Luster prints air-dry for 24 hours, then putting plain paper on them for 24 hours, then putting another sheet of plain paper on them for over a week, and they *still* had major outgassing problems in clip frames after a week or two.  If you have a mat between the print and the glass, the outgassing would be more diffuse than what I've seen in my clip frames (because it's spread more uniformly) and be harder to see as early without the sharp light/dark edges directly against the glass, but it would still be there.  Is it possible that you're not seeing it because it's a uniform fogging over the back of the glass?

And I'm practically right next door to you, Jack (hi there!) so we can't have different humidity.  Were you using matte paper?  I only get outgassing with glossy or semigloss papers, not with matte.

Lisa
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2006, 07:53:47 PM »
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My primary papers are Epson Premium Luster and IJA Gloss -- and I have no problems with either after the dry-down.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 07:54:56 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

sgwrx
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2006, 09:49:16 PM »
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nniko - wow. you'd think that'd be enough to outgas.

i just looked at two prints on VFA that i interleaved last night. same wavy wrinkles in the  paper as i get with the premium luster. interesting comment about whether or not the matting allows for a more diffuse outgas to take place. i'm going to take apart one of my luster prints and check the glass.  will let you know.
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AWeil
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2006, 05:56:59 PM »
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Lisa, I think it is the clip-frame without a mat that is causing the problem.

Artwork on any paper regardless of techniques and color applied needs a mat if framed behind glass to prevent condensed moisture to build up and fog the glass - warp the paper and so on. Paper needs room to expand and contract due to changes in the humidity. Traditional C- Prints would even stick to the glass if mounted without a mat and exposed to moderate humidity, causing permanent damage to the print. Even a high grade watercolor on cotton paper acts up, if it is left without space in a clip-frame (ugly mottled specs, pigments on the glass and warping). Matting is not a cosmetic idea, it has a purpose.

Anyway, I use the Epson 2100 for many years, the 2400 since the beginning of 2006 and many different papers. 'Outgassing' has never been an issue at all. I let the prints dry for about 24 hours or less - just standing them up in not too clean air, frame them with a mat, put them in archival sleeves (which are open on one side - to let air in) for display in a portfolio or store them in drawers without protective sheets in between.

A different technique for display without a mat would be DiaSec. In this case, the print is covered face up with a silicon-type glue and permanently bonded with a sheet of acrylic. Looks very nice, because it adds depth and luminosity to the print. Amazing. If you ever see that in a gallery, you want it. There has been some question recently, whether or not there is a slight yellowing over time due to the glue. One should hope not, because a lot of the highly prized artists today have their prints displayed (and sold) that way. The down side is that it is expensive and can only be done by professionals, as yet, as far as I know :-))

Angela
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sgwrx
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2006, 06:10:17 PM »
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^^^ sounds cool. i'm going to look into that.

i checked the prints out of the frame, no condensate on the glass.
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2006, 11:17:38 AM »
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Artwork on any paper regardless of techniques and color applied needs a mat if framed behind glass to prevent condensed moisture to build up and fog the glass - warp the paper and so on. Paper needs room to expand and contract due to changes in the humidity. Traditional C- Prints would even stick to the glass if mounted without a mat and exposed to moderate humidity, causing permanent damage to the print. Even a high grade watercolor on cotton paper acts up, if it is left without space in a clip-frame (ugly mottled specs, pigments on the glass and warping). Matting is not a cosmetic idea, it has a purpose.

The fogging I'm seeing is unquestionable NOT moisture as you seem to imply.  The fogging precisely follows the contours of the darker-ink regions, with no fogging over white regions of the print, so it must be coming from the ink.

Moisture, expansion, sticking, etc. may be an issue for long-term display in high-humidity conditions, but I use clip frames for temporary display only.  I rotate my prints in and out of the clip frames on a several-month time cycle, and I've never had moisture problems or expansion problems or sticking problems with any prints, either traditional print or inkjet, on that time scale (with the exception of the old Epson Colorlife paper, which would stick to the glass in places).  I've occasionally had prints in clip frames for about two years, and haven't had any problems on that time scale either.  However, the outgassing ruins the appearance of a clip-framed print in a week or two, which is unacceptable.

Hmm.  Interesting to hear that others aren't seeing this.  Maybe Epson just doesn't like me personally...  

Lisa
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2006, 08:54:36 AM »
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However, the outgassing ruins the appearance of a clip-framed print in a week or two, which is unacceptable.

Hmm.  Interesting to hear that others aren't seeing this.  Maybe Epson just doesn't like me personally...  

Lisa
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Lisa, I suspect the issue is your frames -- I always use a mat so there is space between the print and the cover glass or plexi (I use both).  If your clip-frame fronts are a plastic, maybe the issue is with that and not your prints...
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2006, 11:52:07 AM »
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Lisa, I suspect the issue is your frames -- I always use a mat so there is space between the print and the cover glass or plexi (I use both). If your clip-frame fronts are a plastic, maybe the issue is with that and not your prints...

My clip frames use standard glass.  One possible theory is that the fogging isn't obvious when there is a space between the print and the frame, because it's spread uniformly over a wider area, whereas with a clip frame the fogging is concentrated directly over the dark regions, so you can see sharp dividing lines (which are much more obvious than a uniform fogging).  However, sgwrx looked for the more diffuse fogging and didn't see it, so my theory could be wrong.  Another theory: the glass directly against the paper compresses it, causing it to outgas more (for some unknown reason) than if the paper weren't being compressed...

Anyway, I've pretty much solved my outgassing problem in clip frames by using an Ilford paper instead of Epson gloss/semigloss papers.

Lisa
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Barry Prager
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2006, 02:02:47 PM »
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Greetings:

I have had to take framed prints apart and clean the glass because of the out-gassing problem.  The residue on the glass is definitely not moisture but the solvent that keeps the print heads from clogging.  It doesn't matter if it's in a matted frame or pressed against the glass, although I would guess it would happen faster with the latter.  I use the Epson Premium Luster/ Inkjetart Micro Ceramic Luster for my commercial printing needs.  What I do to all my prints is to hang them on a cloth line stretched across my room with wooden cloth pins and let them dry a reasonable amount of time.  This in my experience will not completely fix the out-gas problem.  I then give them my heat treatment.  I stack the prints 20 or so high on a cookie sheet with a layer of plain newsprint between each print.  I then put another cookie sheet on top of the pile.  I put a heating pad set to high underneath, maybe two for larger prints, and another heating pad set to high on top of the second cookie sheet which I weigh down with magazines.  After an hour I take it apart and shuffle the prints around.  I will replace the newsprint  that exhibit wavy patterns and cook them some more.  You can experiment around and see what works for you.  I don't see any degrading of image quality after the treatment.  Even then I will use a spray fixative on prints that I personally frame for sale.  Displaying outdoors exacerbates the problem, but since I've used this technique, I haven't had any fogging or moisture in the cellophane enclosed matted prints.  This will also take the curl out of prints from rolls of paper.  I would love to get a drying cabinet like I used when printing B&W's.

Honeybadger.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 02:29:07 PM by Barry Prager » Logged
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