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Author Topic: K3 Graybalance  (Read 3684 times)
opgr
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« on: May 15, 2006, 03:36:38 AM »
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Well, now that the K3 Epsons have been out long enough, what is the general experience with (neutral) B&W printing using the standard Epson driver?

I have been involved in some press proofing tests a while ago and it appears there still are colorshifts in neutrals. I was waiting to see whether more people are experiencing this, but this topic doesn't seem to be discussed. Does this mean most people have favorable experience? Or is the visual toning control simply obscuring the results?
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Oscar Rysdyk
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2006, 08:02:22 AM »
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Well, now that the K3 Epsons have been out long enough, what is the general experience with (neutral) B&W printing using the standard Epson driver?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oscar,
With the Epson 7800 and Bill Atkinson's profiles, so far I have been able to achieve excellent neutral tones in B&W printing.  My b&w prints are all RGB files, and many have a selective warm tone reminiscent of Agfa Portriga with warm tone developer.  However, standard tone b&w, with neutrals = R=G=B are very neutral without observable casts.  And, neutral tones in color prints are also also appear cast free neutral grays.   I believe Bill has worked diligently to create profiles that provide a high degree of neutral tones.

Ed
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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opgr
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2006, 08:22:24 AM »
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However, standard tone b&w, with neutrals = R=G=B are very neutral without observable casts.  And, neutral tones in color prints are also also appear cast free neutral grays.   I believe Bill has worked diligently to create profiles that provide a high degree of neutral tones.

Right, so what would you say about the following:

1. is the neutrality reasonably maintained under different light-sources? (The usual suspects such as normal daylight vs halogen spots)?

2. would you recommend this as a viable B&W printing solution for fellow photographers?
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Oscar Rysdyk
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2006, 08:56:54 AM »
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Right, so what would you say about the following:

1. is the neutrality reasonably maintained under different light-sources? (The usual suspects such as normal daylight vs halogen spots)?

2. would you recommend this as a viable B&W printing solution for fellow photographers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd say reasonable. Considerably better than K2 inks. Thats where ImagePrint shined by using a B&W mode that eliminated the yellow ink. I find it acceptable for B&W but I'd submit that some of the "big time" B&W guys who where using other solutions to get acceptable B&W with the older Epson's are now using the K3 with the Epson drivers (Greg Gorman comes to mind).

I've yet to get a copy of ImagePrint that runs on my little 2400 so I can't comment on how well it might be compared to using the Epson driver. If all goes well, that version will be finally out in a week or so.
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michael
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2006, 09:04:30 AM »
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On a 4800 the Imageprint Gray profiles provide extreemly neutral and tonally rich B&W. But I have found as well that even their colour profiles produce very neutral monochrome. And yes, I've compared prints under lightsources from 3200 to daylight, and see little if any metamerism.

I've been doing some extensive comparison just within the past few days, because I've been testing the Piezography K7 ink set along with the Quadtone RIP, and find that Imageprint and the K3 inks does a much better job.

Michael
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opgr
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2006, 10:19:00 AM »
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I've been doing some extensive comparison just within the past few days,

I hope we'll see a write up?
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Oscar Rysdyk
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michael
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2006, 11:54:41 AM »
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Actually no, you won't.

I was so disappointed with the K7 ink set and RIP that I terminated my testing early.

I know someone that's using it professionally on a 9600 and getting excellent results, but it took him weeks of work to get things right. I don't have the time or inclination for this.

Michael
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2006, 12:30:46 PM »
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Right, so what would you say about the following:

1. is the neutrality reasonably maintained under different light-sources? (The usual suspects such as normal daylight vs halogen spots)?

2. would you recommend this as a viable B&W printing solution for fellow photographers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oscar,
The visible differential in neutral tones is near imperceptible - IMHO.  So, I would certainly call it reasonable.  I have been making b&w prints traditionally on silver rich papers for nearly 40 years, and personally I would recommend the 7800,  K3 inks with the Epson driver (with top quality profiles) as a viable alternative - keeping in mind that printing is a craft that is acquired and perfected over time with diligent practice.

Ed
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Ed Foster, Jr.
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Randall
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2006, 02:21:41 PM »
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Well, now that the K3 Epsons have been out long enough, what is the general experience with (neutral) B&W printing using the standard Epson driver?

I have been involved in some press proofing tests a while ago and it appears there still are colorshifts in neutrals. I was waiting to see whether more people are experiencing this, but this topic doesn't seem to be discussed. Does this mean most people have favorable experience? Or is the visual toning control simply obscuring the results?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A few thoughts.  The three K3 carbon based "blacks" are excellent, and show negligable color shifting.  Assuming that you are using the Advanced Black and White mode in the Epson driver, have tone set to neutral and are printing with photo black ink, you are using only these 3 inks, and should not be seeing notable color shifts.

Matte Black, however. remains unchanged from the K2 inkset.

When you begin toning, you are adding color inks into the mix, and although I would not refer to this as obscuring the results, it will certainly effect neutrality (although, again, shifting is negligable).

I would highly suggest checking out a roll of Museo Silver Rag.  Be sure to give it a go at 2880.  For color prints, if using the museo profile, try bumping the color density by 3-10%.  I have never been more pleased with my prints.

Best,
Randall
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jlmwyo
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2006, 01:56:42 AM »
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Are there any solutions for Softproofing for the 2400/4800's Advanced Black and White mode? That's something I'd like to see.
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2006, 04:07:29 PM »
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I would highly suggest checking out a roll of Museo Silver Rag.  Be sure to give it a go at 2880.  For color prints, if using the museo profile, try bumping the color density by 3-10%.  I have never been more pleased with my prints.
Randall
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=65570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Good hint ,Randall.
Have you compared 1440 with 2880 using custom profiles?
If so what is the difference in DMax and gamut?
I have been using 1440, and with custom profile have obtained 30% increase in gamut (expressed as LAB)over the Crane profile but find it difficult to push K beyond 2.25 DMax without compressing low values.
Would you (or anyone else) like to comment?
Cheers,
Brian,
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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