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Author Topic: ipf5000  (Read 368512 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2006, 08:40:22 AM »
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Epson 4800: R=58, G=42 and B=149
Canon iPF5000: R=0, G=44 and B=177"[/b]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69150\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not sure that's going to provide much real info considering the process to get the values and we're dealing with a device independent color space. The profile used alone could account for the blue shifts on the Epson (or Canon). Blues shifting to magenta or cyan is VERY common with many profiles! It's usually one of several good test for evaluating an output profile.

What you could do is this. Create a pure blue patch (R0/G0/B255 in a defined RGB working space) and output using both printers/profiles. Measure them with a Spectrophotometer to get LAB values. You could convert back to RGB using an Absolute Colorimetric intent to the original RGB working space. This gives you the values from source to printer back again (round trip values) however, once again, a profile could (does) severely tweak the values. It would tells us more about the profile than the potential of the printer I suspect.

Even if you turned off all color management, the "raw" behavior doesn't necessarily tell us about the potential of the printer. I guess what I'd do is use the same target and profile package and build a custom profile for both printers, then send images through them to examine the color as well as taking a peek at the 3d gamut maps. The various driver settings would play a huge role as well. I don't have a clue about the Canon but do know that for example, with NO Color Adjustments in the Epson driver, you get the greatest gamut potential at the expense of a non linear behavior. Using Color Controls might very well provide a better blue at the expense of other colors.

In the end, you could spend a heck of a lot of media and find that printer A produces better blues at the expense of Reds while the other printer does the opposite (which is what I've been told about these two devices). Then what do you do???
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Andrew Rodney
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markahiggins
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« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2006, 10:16:52 AM »
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Hi Folks,

I just got off the phone with Felix from Canon USA and he was really knowledgeable and accomadating. He sat down in front of the ipf5000 printer at his location and walked through my list of concerns.

1. He acknowledged that the biggest complaint was the lack of a printed manual or even an indexed pdf. He is noting complaints and hopefully if enough of us compain Canon will at least put a new pdf manual up for download.

2. I was wrong about the need for a roller attachment for pano papers. You can can print cut sheets. You need to turn on the cut sheet function and turn off the roller attchment option which is on by default. This can be done from the panel on the printer from the menu (Feeder Section). Why it isn't shipped with the cut-sheet as the default since the roller attachment is an extra is beyond me. Also better documentation would have given guidance. This is similar to the problem Michael reported when selecting tray instead of cassette and then not knowing how to clear it. (I had the same problem until I read his review)

3. There is a way to take care of the mismatch error since it's a nag and the driver overides the setting inputed on the LCD. Go to System set-up then to warning warning and drill accross to ignore mismatch and you can turn it on/off from here.

4. I made him aware of the limited # of paper choices from the tray. They are tricking the printer by selecting one of the choices available for the tray such a photo paper pro and printing using the plug-in and profiles on a different type of media. I told him that it's geat that you can use this work-around, but that the printer should have a firmware upgrade to allow all papers and he agreed. I am hoping Canon takes note of my concerns and concerns of other owners and issues firmware and software updates quickly.

5. Attached is the media choices that was faxed to me from Canon for use in driver settings. This list would be beneficial in using the "Media Configuartion Tool" Michael, I also could not add or edit the paper types in the Media Configuartion Tool. This was news to them and I will call them back when I get home this afternoon and walk through the tool with them. Also, I was told there is an HTML file located in the Media Conguration Tool Folder with instructions. Again, hidden documentation. Hard copy manuals would have been NICE!

6. ICC Profiles. This question is for Andy from Digital Dog. I was told that the supplied Canon ICC profiles for theirm media are in 8 bit and that the Photoshop plug-in detects this and uses an algorithm to convert the the file to 8 bit so that it can be printed as the printer accepts only 8 bit files? I know that with the new Colorvision PrintFixPro that you can create 16 bit ICC profiles. Is it even worth using a 16 bit profile. Does any of what I say about the plug-in printer sound accurate? I thought I was well educated in colro mangement, but I am finding that there is a whole level above where I operate from the operational level to the scientific level.

The more I used the printer over the weekend the more I liked it even with the "annoyances." The printer provides geat output. Better than my 4800 in my opinion and output is the bottom line so I will live with work arounds. Andy I would also be glad to print any targets so we have a wide cross section to compare.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2006, 11:04:13 AM »
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My question is consistency.

I have a friend who had one and immediately profiled it (and yes, he knows what he's doing) and loved the results.  Initially.  Then he found his profiles would not hold.  IOW his colors would shift for the same print on a daily basis, like the nozzles were not laying down the ink in a consistent fashion.  Short version is he returned it to Canon and is back to using his Epsons.

Obviously, he could have had a bad sample so I am curious what others will find as this printer fills the market.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jack and others concerned about the consistency issue, I did have an opportunity to print the same file (of a reddish brick building with black fire escape shot in NYC) on both my Epson 4800 and a Conon ipf5000 to which I had access, both on enhanced matte paper. The results were so close that if you set them aside it would be hard to recall which was which later on. This is as it should be with good colour management in both setips. Admittedly a sample of one with a limited colour set, but reassuring nonetheless.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2006, 11:49:30 AM »
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On the issue of consistency I would agree that more testing is necessary, but from a practical point of view I have a shot of Hopi Petroglyphs from May of this year with lots of Reds and a bright blue sky and on the Crane Museo Silver Rag the prints look "almost" identical from the 4800/R2400 and the iPF5000. I do not see a difference in the reds, but I do see a difference in the sky.

It may be apples/oranges as I used the icc profiles for my 4800/2400 from the Crane website and created the profile from my ipf5000 over the weekend with a custom profile created by a friend with the Gretag Eye One. I would also be hard pressed to tell which printer they came from unless I looked at the information I printed on the back of the prints. The only difference was in the saturation of the sky. The reds look alike.

I also printed a vertical panorama of a church steeple in the fall and the reds were not as strong, but more realistic along with the greens in the evergreen trees and the sky looked MUCH better!

Here are the images I used to test with.
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2006, 03:14:56 PM »
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Jack, are you sure this isn't just curing. How long had they dried? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69129\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don (et al):  

It could be as I did not specifically ask, though given this individual's experience in printing, I doubt it.  However, being a new printer it is possible that Canon inks take a couple of days to dry down properly...
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dlashier
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« Reply #125 on: June 26, 2006, 03:52:59 PM »
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it is possible that Canon inks take a couple of days to dry down properly...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69188\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Epson inks take a couple days to dry thoroughly although Ethan says you can get by with "overnight" if you lay a sheet of plain paper on top to help draw out the volatiles. With Epson, a three hour old print and three day old print definitely look different.

- DL
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ericaro
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« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2006, 04:57:06 PM »
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I have played with my IPF5000 FOR 2 DAYS NOW AND HAVE A FEW PROBLEMS;

   1- I can't feed any paper from the front slot. no matter what I try.I can only feed from the top slot/tray. What is the trick to feed 13X19 hanrag from the front slot/tray?What needs to be selected in the front panel for the paper to move in?
   
    2- I want to make profiles in the print plugin for hanrag, moab entrada natural ,innova smooth cotton as well as ilford satin, innova F gloss and later hanrag pearl and crane silver rag. What are you using for media type for the above fiber papers and coated papers. I also assume that for profiling, "no color correction" needs to be selected in output profile,right?  I know that the"closest" driver must be choosen for matte/fiber/watercolor papers but I want to know what has worked for you. I hope Michael can chime in for this.
   
   3- What coated/glossy/satin/pearl paper has shown the least bronzing so far?
                                 
                                      Louis Bouillon
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michael
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« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2006, 06:26:00 PM »
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The printer doesn't want you to feed anything expect very heavy posterboard from the front. You can fool it by telling it that the paper is something esle, but i think you'll find feeding and allignment problems.

The issue of choosing which canoin papers to set for prpofiling and printing with third party papers is a horror.

I select Photo Paper Plus Semi-Gloss for glossy iblack prints because it will load their the cassette. Matte papers are less of a problem.

Michael
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2006, 12:26:36 AM »
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With Epson, a three hour old print and three day old print definitely look different.

Ambient humidity plays a large role here -- my prints do not change appreciably in tonality or color after three hours of dry-down.  However I do agree in principle and let my prints dry-down overnight before moving them and at least three (and preferably five) days before mounting and framing.  But I can profile after an overnight dry-down with zero problems.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 12:27:20 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

ericaro
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« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2006, 09:33:40 AM »
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The printer doesn't want you to feed anything expect very heavy posterboard from the front. You can fool it by telling it that the paper is something esle, but i think you'll find feeding and allignment problems.

The issue of choosing which canoin papers to set for prpofiling and printing with third party papers is a horror.

I select Photo Paper Plus Semi-Gloss for glossy iblack prints because it will load their the cassette. Matte papers are less of a problem.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


 Michael,
              Are you saying that there is no straight paper path possible for this printer? I usually use straight path for hanrag and entrada 308 on my 2200.I am told that the new crane, hanrag pearl and innova f gloss are thick and rigid. How did you run those papers? Straight path or upper slot/tray? Do they get warped from upper tray due to the curvature involved?
                  Louis Bouillon
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dlashier
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« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2006, 01:01:45 PM »
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> Ambient humidity plays a large role here

and I'm sure ambient temperature. I live on the coast where indoor humidity hovers around 40% year around and temp rarely rises above 70. I sometimes also profile after letting the target dry only 24 hours but prefer to give it two or three days.

- DL
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michael
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« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2006, 01:58:39 PM »
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As mentioned in the review, there are four paths, from the cassette, front the top, from the roll holder and front the front.

You can handle just about any media type of thickness through one of these. The issue that I'm complaining about revolves around the fact that unless you tell the printer the type of paper being used in "Canon" paper terms, it doesn't understand, and then you have to lie to it.

I feed Han and Entrada 308 from the cassette all the time, with no problem.

Michael
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ericaro
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« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2006, 05:05:13 PM »
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As mentioned in the review, there are four paths, from the cassette, front the top, from the roll holder and front the front.

You can handle just about any media type of thickness through one of these. The issue that I'm complaining about revolves around the fact that unless you tell the printer the type of paper being used in "Canon" paper terms, it doesn't understand, and then you have to lie to it.

I feed Han and Entrada 308 from the cassette all the time, with no problem.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69261\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


 Thanks for the quick response. I "discovered" auto(monochrome photo) yesterday and although all the controls are present and very promising, I seem to get a non neutral print using the "neutral "setting.My print comes out with what seems to be a slight sepia tone to my eyes. BW from an RGB file through the driver with anICC selection seems to be more neutral . Did you play with any settings in the box to get a neutral output? I am growing more fond of this printer everyday but can't wait for IP!
Louis Bouillon
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ericaro
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« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2006, 08:17:42 PM »
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Michael,
              Did you get a chance to check the printer linearization (maximum shadow/minimum highlight)?
                      louis Bouillon
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markahiggins
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« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2006, 09:20:39 PM »
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Another day of testing. The problem I reported yesterday of not being able to print anything longer than 24" unless you are using the roll attachment has been confirmed by Felix at Canon USA and has been reported to the engineers back in Japan. I will returning the printer to Calumet as I do alot of prinitng on the Crane Pano papers and the Red River Pano papers as well. I am very suprised that using the manual feed they would limit the length on this type of printer.

Read my other posts on how to clear the mismatch error on the LCD screen., etc.
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michael
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« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2006, 09:22:09 PM »
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I printed charts from two printers and have sent them to Andrew Rodney for his evaluation.

There should be something to report in a few days, depending on Andrew's availability.

Michael
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markahiggins
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« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2006, 10:11:17 PM »
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I think some of the bigger issues at the present time is the general overall lack of paper choices from the tray unless you "trick" it.

The limited size of paper when using the manual feed.

The fact that I just sent screen shots to Canon because the media configuration tool does not work

A non-indexed HTML manual meaning that you stumble about while learning to use this beast while wasting valuable dollars in your consumables.
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michael
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« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2006, 07:06:44 AM »
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Mark,

Agreed. Unless Canon fixes these flaws, and quickly, they will not only suffer a black eye, but could kill their opportunity to have fielded a potentially very competative product.

Lots of great products fail in the marketplace due to just such fumbled launches.

Michael
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ericaro
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« Reply #138 on: June 28, 2006, 08:45:01 AM »
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Mark
         What media selection did you use in print plugin to print the profile targets for PK papers(silver rag.han pearl,f type gloss ect.) and for MK papers hanrag,entrada, innova smooth ect.
                        Louis Bouillon
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markahiggins
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« Reply #139 on: June 28, 2006, 09:54:46 AM »
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Mark
         What media selection did you use in print plugin to print the profile targets for PK papers(silver rag.han pearl,f type gloss ect.) and for MK papers hanrag,entrada, innova smooth ect.
                        Louis Bouillon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I am in Maine today (I love Starbucks and wireless on my laptop..yes Maine does have Starbucks!) and will not in front of the printer until tonight, but I belive I used the driver setting of Heavyweight Semi-glossy Photo Paper for the Hahnemuehle Fine Art Pearl and Crane Silver Rag.

For my Epson @Watercolor I used the Fine Art Watercolor and for the Entrada I used Premium Matte Paper.

By the way IT Supplies (http://www.itsupplies.com/) has the roll attachment in the NY warehouse. I got mine the day after the printer came. It works great for the "17 Crane roll paper. I got one great Pano from it so far in limited testing. I am still peeved about the manual feed and 50 sheets of Museo 365 gsm PAN Pro Panoramic Paper I have sitting here that can't be fed through it.  

Michael, attached in this PDF are the screen shots of the "Media Configuration Tool" and the problems I ran into. I am also using OS X 10.4.6 and wondered if they were similar to your problems. Felix at Canon was unaware of these problems and I gave him a link to your review and this discussion forum.

If you would like his contact information shoot me an e-mail at markahiggins@msn.com
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