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Author Topic: ipf5000  (Read 376623 times)
neil snape
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« Reply #260 on: August 30, 2006, 09:29:39 AM »
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I used ProfileMaker Pro. And I have the packaging module and could build a nColor Profile. But then what would I do with it?

Guys, there have been nColor printers (Epson 6, 7 and 8 ink) printers for years now. We've treated them (depending on the driver) as RGB or CMYK devices. The use of nColor profiles is primary intended for the packaging market and the ability to produce nColor profiles is pretty new.

KISS!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It has always worked better in rgb for Epson outside of the Roland and Colrspans multi colored inks with  specific rip s. They were almost non user configurable as N channel and in fact much easier to do also as rgb.
Yet the new Canon is going in the right direction with the color gamut, and the  plug-in should be capable of using output profiles on a higher level than Epson can with the current drivers.
One thing is not well known, some RIP's and drivers internally use color maps with N-channel profiles from 3 and 4 color data to the 6 or more color inks. These are not output profiles however>just color maps.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #261 on: August 30, 2006, 09:30:17 AM »
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I used ProfileMaker Pro. And I have the packaging module and could build a nColor Profile. But then what would I do with it?
Buy a iPF5000 and play with the 16 bit driver------!! then entertain us with banter.

Bye
martinmitch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74927\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know for a fact it will use the nColor profile I build in PMP? How do I soft proof it?
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Andrew Rodney
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JeffKohn
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« Reply #262 on: August 30, 2006, 10:10:26 AM »
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I think the point Andrew is trying to make is that the fact the IPF5000 uses 12 inks (actually, 11) instead of 8 is completely irrelevent as far as the profiling workflow is concerned. The 16-bit driver still only exposes an RGB interface.  Even if you _could_ create an n-color profile, you wouldn't be able to use it unless you could find a RIP that exposes that capability. Heck, even if ImagePrint adds support for the IPF5000, it's my understanding that IP only allows users to create RGB profiles, not CMYK or n-color. So you'd still be using an RGB profile.
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neil snape
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« Reply #263 on: August 30, 2006, 10:55:49 AM »
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I think the point Andrew is trying to make is that the fact the IPF5000 uses 12 inks (actually, 11) instead of 8 is completely irrelevent as far as the profiling workflow is concerned. The 16-bit driver still only exposes an RGB interface.  Even if you _could_ create an n-color profile, you wouldn't be able to use it unless you could find a RIP that exposes that capability. Heck, even if ImagePrint adds support for the IPF5000, it's my understanding that IP only allows users to create RGB profiles, not CMYK or n-color. So you'd still be using an RGB profile.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes. This is where the problem will lie until the operating system allow multiple channel ripping (already possible in Quartz) or in Vista ( if it's not disabled as were many of the announced color features!) . Otherwise it will be as it always has been> third party rips.
There is the possibility now that I think of it in Gutenprint rip if anyone has the heart to try where the entire system is unlocked. Even the screens can be over ridden there for those who dare....

The Canon plug in though is offering only what is needed, yet has a lot of potential in the frameworks. For the time being if rgb is not only the easiest but the only workflow possible N-Channel profiles aren't going to do anything.

Could some of you post some canned profiles for the iP5000?
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martinmitch
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« Reply #264 on: August 30, 2006, 03:01:22 PM »
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Could some of you post some canned profiles for the iP5000?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #265 on: August 30, 2006, 04:01:26 PM »
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I think the point Andrew is trying to make is that the fact the IPF5000 uses 12 inks (actually, 11) instead of 8 is completely irrelevent as far as the profiling workflow is concerned. The 16-bit driver still only exposes an RGB interface.  Even if you _could_ create an n-color profile, you wouldn't be able to use it unless you could find a RIP that exposes that capability. Heck, even if ImagePrint adds support for the IPF5000, it's my understanding that IP only allows users to create RGB profiles, not CMYK or n-color. So you'd still be using an RGB profile.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff, If ImagePrint does not already support this printer, I believe it is in the works. Your understanding that the number of inks in the printer should be irrelevant to regular RGB inkjet printer profiling is what I thought as well until Martin brought to our attention (in post #248) some words to the effect that his Monaco package does not support more than 8 inks. One of the key purposes for buying this printer is to be able to use various media without wasting gobs of ink like we are now stuck with on our EpsonX800 series. But this means one needs to be able to have reliable profiles, so whether the usual profiling packages can operate properly with this printer needs to be nailed-down with certainty.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #266 on: August 30, 2006, 04:26:12 PM »
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Jeff, If ImagePrint does not already support this printer, I believe it is in the works.
Last I heard, they were hoping to support it in the next 90 days or so. Considering how long it was from the time they first said that R2400 support would be out "next week" to the time they actually shipped it, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Quote
Your understanding that the number of inks in the printer should be irrelevant to regular RGB inkjet printer profiling is what I thought as well until Martin brought to our attention (in post #248) some words to the effect that his Monaco package does not support more than 8 inks. One of the key purposes for buying this printer is to be able to use various media without wasting gobs of ink like we are now stuck with on our EpsonX800 series. But this means one needs to be able to have reliable profiles, so whether the usual profiling packages can operate properly with this printer needs to be nailed-down with certainty.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The n-color profile support in Monaco Profiler or ProfileMaker Pro is a different beast altogether from the RGB profiles that we create for our printers. When using the standard drivers and creating RGB profiles, the profiling software has absolutely no idea how many inks the printer has, how could it?

Now if you had a RIP that supported the ipf5000 and allowed the use of a true 12-color profiles, I suppose it would be a problem if the Monaco software could only support up to 8-color profiles. But this situation is completely hypothetical because to my knowledge such a RIP does not exist.
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martinmitch
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« Reply #267 on: August 30, 2006, 05:17:06 PM »
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Last I heard, they were hoping to support it in the next 90 days or so. Considering how long it was from the time they first said that R2400 support would be out "next week" to the time they actually shipped it, I wouldn't hold my breath.

The n-color profile support in Monaco Profiler or ProfileMaker Pro is a different beast altogether from the RGB profiles that we create for our printers. When using the standard drivers and creating RGB profiles, the profiling software has absolutely no idea how many inks the printer has, how could it?

Now if you had a RIP that supported the ipf5000 and allowed the use of a true 12-color profiles, I suppose it would be a problem if the Monaco software could only support up to 8-color profiles. But this situation is completely hypothetical because to my knowledge such a RIP does not exist.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello,

I have tried to e-mail x-rite concerning my hypothetical problems with their software but because I'm not from the USA they will not allow me to or accept my email- how odd!
So need help :- could one of you helpful individuals e-mail x-rite at:-

[a href=\"http://www.xritephoto.com/support/]http://www.xritephoto.com/support/[/url]

and ask:

1] Does the Pulse ColorElite rgb standerd version V.1.0.2 support the creation of external profiles for the 12 ink Canon iPF5000 inkjet printer?     [probably does but need horses mouth to speak]

2] Does the Monaco GamutWorks utility supplied with the Pulse ColorElite again support the 12 ink Canon iPF5000 or is it restricted to 8 inks or 8 colours?

Thanks it has been a most enligthening day on L.L. website.

Tried in earlier post to load canon canned profiles onto message but L.L. would not accept file.
Sometimes I can miss the obvious even aeroplanes or trip over cead ducks!

Ta Much
martinmitch
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danamr
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« Reply #268 on: August 30, 2006, 05:31:01 PM »
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Jeff, If ImagePrint does not already support this printer, I believe it is in the works. Your understanding that the number of inks in the printer should be irrelevant to regular RGB inkjet printer profiling is what I thought as well until Martin brought to our attention (in post #248) some words to the effect that his Monaco package does not support more than 8 inks. One of the key purposes for buying this printer is to be able to use various media without wasting gobs of ink like we are now stuck with on our EpsonX800 series. But this means one needs to be able to have reliable profiles, so whether the usual profiling packages can operate properly with this printer needs to be nailed-down with certainty.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74961\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ProfileMaker 5x builds quite nice profiles for the Canon.  I have been using a larger sample target (3600) with it to get try to get a better sample of the range of the printer, but beyond that, the profiles I have so for are working fine.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #269 on: August 30, 2006, 05:38:54 PM »
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When using the standard drivers and creating RGB profiles, the profiling software has absolutely no idea how many inks the printer has, how could it?

Now if you had a RIP that supported the ipf5000 and allowed the use of a true 12-color profiles, I suppose it would be a problem if the Monaco software could only support up to 8-color profiles. But this situation is completely hypothetical because to my knowledge such a RIP does not exist.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74967\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jeff, OK, now let us drill down a bit. I agree, the profiling software itself cannot know how many inks the printer has. The spectro reads the patches (printer OUTPUT), and the numbers go back to the software which generates a profile. This profile describes the device and is used in the process of correlating "device color values" with corresponding "device-independent" source values describing the colour we want to see. The "device color values" (let us say usually RGB) are control signals going to the printer to make it reproduce the colour we expect as described by the source profile. If that's a correct (but superficial) description of the colour management anatomy we are dealing with, the question then is what is going on "under the hood" when these control signals go to the printer. Recalling - these control signals are device-dependent colour values - data - so far devoid of anything that says 8, 10 or 12 ink tanks. BUT once those signals are sent, SOMETHING needs to convert them into how much C,M,Y, K, etc. ink the printer lays down to describe on paper each pixel. That something could be the RIP or the Printer Driver (after Photoshop manages the source to destination profiling). So the question here I think is whether at this point, the device profile plays any role at all in how these signals get converted to CMYK (and for Canon IPF +RGB) ink drops. I would expect not - what I DO expect is that when the printer gets a signal to produce colour X, the printer driver (or the RIP) takes over the process and selects from whatever number of ink tanks it has to reproduce that hue. But as I mentioned above, there seems to be some evidence (post 248) that it may not be thus.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
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« Reply #270 on: August 30, 2006, 05:48:33 PM »
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Hello,

I have tried to e-mail x-rite concerning my hypothetical problems with their software but because I'm not from the USA they will not allow me to or accept my email- how odd!
So need help :- could one of you helpful individuals e-mail x-rite at:-

http://www.xritephoto.com/support/

and ask:

1] Does the Pulse ColorElite rgb standerd version V.1.0.2 support the creation of external profiles for the 12 ink Canon iPF5000 inkjet printer?     [probably does but need horses mouth to speak]

2] Does the Monaco GamutWorks utility supplied with the Pulse ColorElite again support the 12 ink Canon iPF5000 or is it restricted to 8 inks or 8 colours?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Martin, I just tried to do this. I live in Canada. I got back a gibberish error message. So much for them. I haven't bought their stuff yet and if that is the quality of tech support one can expect from X-Rite I probably won't.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
martinmitch
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« Reply #271 on: August 30, 2006, 05:57:16 PM »
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Martin, I just tried to do this. I live in Canada. I got back a gibberish error message. So much for them. I haven't bought their stuff yet and if that is the quality of tech support one can expect from X-Rite I probably won't.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
X-Rite website is over complicated and confusing.
I managed to find my way through their website and have made contact at second attempt:-
Hear is coppy of first e-mail

Dear Mr. Mitchell,

This new Canon printer, while a different kind of beast in many ways, is still a device that produces color.  As long as you can print a profiling target through it, you can make an output profile for it.  

Normally, I would tell people: If you are printing through Photoshop, then the profiles you make are not going to be used in the printer anyway.  They are actually going to be used in Photoshop. But this printer has two ways of printing:  A standard RGB driver, and the 16-bit driver. The above holds true for the standard Canon driver.

The 16-bit driver works differently than other drivers - as a Photoshop plug in.  From what I've heard a custom profile works best when used within the 16-bit driver, rather than in the Photoshop print with preview dialog.  I don't know yet whether this device is considered an RGB or a CMYK device.  It is most likely RGB.  I believe your Pulse colorelite is the standard version which does not do CMYK so this is a consideration.

This is such a new printer that we haven't had a chance to get our hand on one, so I wish I could tell you more.


Pat Herold
herold@chromix.com
206.985-6837 ext #6

On Aug 30, 2006, at 6:25 AM, martin mitchell wrote:

Hello
A general question concerning the new 12 ink Canon iPF5000 inkjet printer.

1] Does the Pulse colorelite - standard,support the creation of external profiles for the Canon?

2]Does Monaco Gamut Works allow the use of profiles from the Canon?

Basically,is this Canon 12 ink printer compatible with the X-rite pulse software?

Thanks
Martin mitchell


My Reply:-

Hello Pat ,
The second question concerning the Monaco GamutWorks still troubles me could you enlighten me - maybe.

There has been a lot of discussion concerning profiling and the Canon iPF5000 on Luminous Landscape website at :-Pages 11 to 14 are most interesting.

[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=10914&st=220]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ic=10914&st=220[/url]

Thanks for your help

Martin Mitchell

Still waiting for reply.

Bye martinmitch
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digitaldog
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« Reply #272 on: August 30, 2006, 06:06:57 PM »
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The only product in the X-Rite line that builds nColor profiles is PROFILER Platinum and it doesn't support 12 channel profiles. The max is 8 channel.

PULSE in theory (in reality) can read the targets to build such a profile but you'd need PROFILE and you'd be 4 channels shy of what you need.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #273 on: August 30, 2006, 07:08:30 PM »
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Treat it as an RGB device (that is, send it the RGB target).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Andrew,

That's exactly what I tried doing.. printed the RGB target, both basic and "best" or whatever, and then scanning the RGB printed target with the Pulse spectrophotometer, but never could get it to display the patches as it should in tethered mode.

The other thing that totally threw me is the targets that came out of the IPF5000 "LOOKED" like the CMYK targets, colors totally different than the RGB target that appeared on screen (and exactly like the CMYK target preview) Huh??   Color Management was turned off.  Never seen anything like that happen before.

Maybe my kit is broken ??

Tony
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Tony Bonanno Photography
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digitaldog
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« Reply #274 on: August 30, 2006, 07:13:09 PM »
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Hi Andrew,

That's exactly what I tried doing.. printed the RGB target, both basic and "best" or whatever, and then scanning the RGB printed target with the Pulse spectrophotometer, but never could get it to display the patches as it should in tethered mode.
Tony
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Displayed? You mean the before and "after" patches shown in the UI don't match? That's totally normal. I'm not sure what you mean.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #275 on: August 30, 2006, 07:14:37 PM »
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Martin,

Great - you beat me to it - I was just about to find another way of getting those answers. It is good that you succeeded, and I think the answer they gave you is both honest and sensible. Let us assume the printer is an RGB device - it would appear that there is confidence in the profile when used with the standard driver and a lack of knowledge at source about what happens when the profile is used with the 16 bit Photoshop plug-in. So that's where this issue stands - too bad in a way because the 16 bit plug-in is supposed to be a key feature of this printer. I hope this profiling compatibility question gets clarified more completely soon, and your efforts at doing so are valuable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #276 on: August 30, 2006, 07:20:03 PM »
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The only product in the X-Rite line that builds nColor profiles is PROFILER Platinum and it doesn't support 12 channel profiles. The max is 8 channel.

PULSE in theory (in reality) can read the targets to build such a profile but you'd need PROFILE and you'd be 4 channels shy of what you need.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74978\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Profiler platinum supports 8 colors, not channels. Variations in density as in 4 blacks or two shades of magenta or cyan count as one color. So the Ipf series only uses 7 colors in Profiler platinum you could add an extra color in theory.
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tbonanno
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« Reply #277 on: August 30, 2006, 07:24:14 PM »
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Displayed? You mean the before and "after" patches shown in the UI don't match? That's totally normal. I'm not sure what you mean.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74987\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Anyway, I guess this is pretty off topic from where the rest of the group is going.. still wondering if this machine IS an RGB device or maybe CMYK ?  


Tony
« Last Edit: August 30, 2006, 08:08:14 PM by tbonanno » Logged

Tony Bonanno Photography
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« Reply #278 on: August 30, 2006, 07:28:24 PM »
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X-Rite website is over complicated and confusing.
I managed to find my way through their website and have made contact at second attempt:-
Hear is coppy of first e-mail

Dear Mr. Mitchell,

This new Canon printer, while a different kind of beast in many ways, is still a device that produces color.  As long as you can print a profiling target through it, you can make an output profile for it. 


Bye martinmitch
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hmm, interesting response they sent you Martin..  I know a couple of folks out there are making decent profiles for this beast...  just wondering how ?
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Tony Bonanno Photography
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digitaldog
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« Reply #279 on: August 30, 2006, 07:43:11 PM »
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Anyway, I guess this is pretty off topic from where the rest of the group is going.. still wondering if this machine IS an RGB device or maybe CMYK ? 

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74991\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's way beyond OT at this point.

You can profile a device as RGB or CMYK once you first determine what the driver "wants" to be fed.

As for channels versus colors, the PROFILER manual uses both to describe their profiles (assuming you want to get anal here with the terms). See page 208, 216 and 226 of their manual.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2006, 07:43:50 PM by digitaldog » Logged

Andrew Rodney
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