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Author Topic: This Test was completely flawed  (Read 71026 times)
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2006, 09:49:02 PM »
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Alain, do you think a blend of trace amounts of scorpion venom with K3 would help reduce nozzle clogs? (The alcohol content of the Chanel could be harmful.)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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alainbriot
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« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2006, 12:07:38 AM »
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Alain, do you think a blend of trace amounts of scorpion venom with K3 would help reduce nozzle clogs? (The alcohol content of the Chanel could be harmful.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67403\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It might but it can be risky.  Being from France I'd prefer trying Channel #5 personally ;- )  At any rate it would exceed the cost of K3 ink alone.  And I am not kidding.  I did a search for "expensive liquids" and apparently Scorpion venom tops the list and Channel #5 is more expensive per ml than K3 inks.

At any rate knowing that Dom Perignon is cheaper than K3 inks makes it easier to legitimize high end champagne consumption.  If someone says I indulge myself,  I simply mention that it is cheaper than the ink I use to make my prints.  See, expensive inks can be a benefit at times.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 12:11:12 AM by alainbriot » Logged

Alain Briot
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Ray
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« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2006, 12:36:58 AM »
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Such comparisons can get quite bizarre. In many coutries a litre of milk can cost less than a litre of petrol,

In any case, it's well known that profits on ink and paper support the Epson research effort towards providing us with better printers, as well as providing dividends to shareholders and multi-million dollar bonuses to executives.

Now we're completely off topic, I might as well speculate that it must be a terrible burden to be in control of such wealth that can do harm or good depending on how it's invested.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 01:00:18 AM by Ray » Logged
barryfitzgerald
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« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2006, 02:21:15 AM »
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It's also way more expensive than gasoline for your car, but the comparison is devoid of any signifigance unless you happen to know a great deal about the technology and manufacturing costs that go into the formulation and production of these inks compared with champagne, Russian caviar or gasoline.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67400\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hmmm I always thought a consumer rip off was something to be concerned about..seems I was wrong!

Honestly guys....the printer manufacturers have a lot to answer  for..some are worse than others...

This isnt something to be taken lightly...its ink not some rare substance.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2006, 07:10:56 AM »
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Hmmm I always thought a consumer rip off was something to be concerned about..seems I was wrong!

Honestly guys....the printer manufacturers have a lot to answer for..some are worse than others...

This isnt something to be taken lightly...its ink not some rare substance.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Barry, you tell me factually what they have to answer for? Where's your inside source of reliable data on how much operating income they make, how much of the operating income gets ploughed back into R&D and manufacturing expansion, what is their annual rate of return on net revalued assets in operation, what is the track record on their cost of capital and rates of return to shareholder equity? Once you have a good grip on all of that, you can start talking about whether the pricing is "right" or "wrong" - and Alain - I think you have it exactly right - all things in perspective - but you know it's a slippery slope when you extend the logic, because if I can buy A because it is cheaper than B, but than I can buy B because it is cheaper than C, and I can buy C because it is cheaper than D..........well you see what I mean. And then extend this game over two people in a household with competing interests for the same cash-flow and see where it takes you...............................

Oh - and Alain, I forgot to mention - once we're talking about venom - in the old days on this continent we had the proverbial snake-oil salesmen - seems that alot of folks think they are alive and well in the printer industry. On that I reserve my judgement in light of the foregoing.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 07:13:21 AM by MarkDS » Logged

Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2006, 08:46:55 AM »
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At any rate knowing that Dom Perignon is cheaper than K3 inks makes it easier to legitimize high end champagne consumption.  If someone says I indulge myself,  I simply mention that it is cheaper than the ink I use to make my prints.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67408\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I expect that Dom Perignon results in fewer clogged nozzles, but I don't expect it can achieve the same density of blacks that you can get with K3 inks, or even the lowly K2 inks.  

Alain, are you sure your recent printing problems didn't have something to do with excessive D P in the system? (Sorry! I couldn't resist. I am glad the printer woes are solved.)

Eric
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2006, 10:06:19 AM »
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I can think of at least 10 people off the top of my head (who are not into printing photos) that get new ink cartridges by buying new printers.  The old printer goes into the trash.  As this is actually cheaper than buying new ink cartridges one has to wonder about the pricing structure.

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Barry, you tell me factually what they have to answer for? Where's your inside source of reliable data on how much operating income they make, how much of the operating income gets ploughed back into R&D and manufacturing expansion, what is their annual rate of return on net revalued assets in operation, what is the track record on their cost of capital and rates of return to shareholder equity? Once you have a good grip on all of that, you can start talking about whether the pricing is "right" or "wrong" - and Alain - I think you have it exactly right - all things in perspective - but you know it's a slippery slope when you extend the logic, because if I can buy A because it is cheaper than B, but than I can buy B because it is cheaper than C, and I can buy C because it is cheaper than D..........well you see what I mean. And then extend this game over two people in a household with competing interests for the same cash-flow and see where it takes you...............................

Oh - and Alain, I forgot to mention - once we're talking about venom - in the old days on this continent we had the proverbial snake-oil salesmen - seems that alot of folks think they are alive and well in the printer industry. On that I reserve my judgement in light of the foregoing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2006, 10:48:48 AM »
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This can happen, depending on the model of printer they are trashing and replacing, and what kind of ink. For Pro printers this will not be the case. It really isn't clear how much of the pricing strategy is related to product-specific costs or cross-subsidies designed to make the bottom-line work one way or another. You may recall that in the early days of roll film photography Kodak actually gave away the cameras to create a market for the film.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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alainbriot
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« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2006, 10:59:32 AM »
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I expect that Dom Perignon results in fewer clogged nozzles, but I don't expect it can achieve the same density of blacks that you can get with K3 inks, or even the lowly K2 inks. 

Alain, are you sure your recent printing problems didn't have something to do with excessive D P in the system? (Sorry! I couldn't resist. I am glad the printer woes are solved.)

Eric
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DP solves certain problems but brings up others.  There's no perfect solution ;-)
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Alain Briot
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BJL
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« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2006, 01:31:15 PM »
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And what about the European contingent?
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right: it's a Bosch freezer loaded with Ilford and Agfa for all my Zeiss lenses!
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2006, 01:42:47 PM »
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DP solves certain problems but brings up others.  There's no perfect solution ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67440\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the hope would be that if we get sozzled enough from drinking the DP, paying the VISA bill for the ink charges will sail through painlessly. So in fact one is an antidote for the other, but it just happens to work in the brain of the user rather than the printhead of the printer.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2006, 02:01:37 PM »
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I think the hope would be that if we get sozzled enough from drinking the DP, paying the VISA bill for the ink charges will sail through painlessly. So in fact one is an antidote for the other, but it just happens to work in the brain of the user rather than the printhead of the printer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67461\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mark,

Maybe you would be willing to do another of your cost analyses for us: How much must I spend on DP in order to feel that my prints really are worth every penny I spend on ink and paper as well as initial printer cost? How much more DP will it take for me to feel justified in junking my lowly 2200 and getting a 7800? I think those are the key economic questions we should be dealing with.

Eric
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2006, 02:56:48 PM »
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Mark,

Maybe you would be willing to do another of your cost analyses for us: How much must I spend on DP in order to feel that my prints really are worth every penny I spend on ink and paper as well as initial printer cost? How much more DP will it take for me to feel justified in junking my lowly 2200 and getting a 7800? I think those are the key economic questions we should be dealing with.

Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67463\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Eric, indeed, if possible it could make a significant contribution to the literature; but I fear there are critical data gaps to deal with. You see, it is a dynamic, non-linear problem, because there are discontinuities in cause and effect that are distributed in real time and probably asymetric (e.g. how much antidote for the front end-investment versus how much antidote for the supplies thereafter, at what cyclicality and volumes over what time period, and what discount rate for deriving present values). Unfortunately, we don't have a data base of tested cases from which to draw inferences for other consumers (i.e. Alain already has his x800 printer and consumed the DP, but probably didn't record the existential relationship between the two at the time.) Then to complicate the matter further, borrowing from the field of environmental science, you would probably need a "cumulative impacts analysis" to get it right, because the effect of alcohol on the brain works that way. My goodness, nothing like lawyers, tax accountants and economists to complicate life for us, isn't it? Better to be a humble drunken photographer, charge enough money for the prints to pay for the bl..dy ink and be done with it!

Cheers!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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alainbriot
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« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2006, 03:16:20 PM »
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Mark,

Maybe you would be willing to do another of your cost analyses for us: How much must I spend on DP in order to feel that my prints really are worth every penny I spend on ink and paper as well as initial printer cost? How much more DP will it take for me to feel justified in junking my lowly 2200 and getting a 7800? I think those are the key economic questions we should be dealing with.

Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67463\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you can afford DP on a regular basis then you shouldn't be worried about ink or printer costs ;-)  If you are drinking Prefontaines (unexpensive French wine capped with a beer cap instead of a cork), then you are entitled to being concerned about the cost of ink & printer ;- )
« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 03:19:18 PM by alainbriot » Logged

Alain Briot
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2006, 06:48:37 PM »
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It's actually ironic that this thread has decended to the level that in reality it started out.....  
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2006, 08:03:24 PM »
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It's actually ironic that this thread has decended to the level that in reality it started out.....  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm sorry Ben, if I dare say so myself, the quality of the humour is much better at this end - it's pure, unpretentious fun!  
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ray
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« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2006, 10:28:29 PM »
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Getting things into perspective, Channel #5 has a transitory effect, which is no doubt very pleasant for the olfactory system, but soon wears off and needs repeated application.

K3 inks, on the other hand, last a life time with one application. They are thus much better value. There should be no grounds for complaint   .
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alainbriot
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« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2006, 01:23:32 AM »
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Getting things into perspective, Channel #5 has a transitory effect, which is no doubt very pleasant for the olfactory system, but soon wears off and needs repeated application.

K3 inks, on the other hand, last a life time with one application. They are thus much better value.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Channel #5 can get you places that no amount of K3 ink ever will...
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Alain Briot
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Ray
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« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2006, 02:08:28 AM »
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Channel #5 can get you places that no amount of K3 ink ever will...
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Alain,
I hope you are not implying that the opposite sex is not enamoured of my beautiful, handcrafted prints.  
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alainbriot
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« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2006, 10:56:10 AM »
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Alain,
I hope you are not implying that the opposite sex is not enamoured of my beautiful, handcrafted prints.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=67513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not in the least.  Just keep a nostril out for those customers wearing Channel #5 because their perfume being more expensive more than your ink they should be able to afford your prints. ;-)

Notice that this is not part of my regular photography marketing course ;- )
« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 10:59:54 AM by alainbriot » Logged

Alain Briot
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