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Author Topic: Saving as srgb in photoshop causes trouble  (Read 21116 times)
marc.s
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« on: July 14, 2006, 09:09:05 AM »
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This has me a little confuzzled..

I always work in adobe rgb in Photoshop and save my files as such. But when I save jpegs for showing others I convert to srgb to avoid the image looking flat. That has worked for me in the past from what I remember, but now I get crazy opposite results. Instead, these images get a contrast and saturation boost when I save them as srgb - as soon as I load them back into Photoshop or any other app they show as over-saturated.

However, if I 'save for web' they look like they're supposed to.

Another thing that I don't understand is that when I convert to srgb I get a little star * next to the file name and bit depth in the window, but when I import those srgb images the star isn't there any longer.. I seem to remember that it used to be, but maybe I was wrong?

In the process of saving jpegs I also reduce to 8 bits, but I don't think that's causing any issues. I use CS2

I have a feeling it's due to my changing of monitor profile, but I thought all pictures were displayed properly in Photoshop using the monitor profile?

What do I need to do to have pictures display properly as jpegs? And what is going on here?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 09:09:52 AM by marc.s » Logged
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 10:50:21 AM »
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Post a screenshot of your Photoshop color management settings--something is set wrong there.
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marc.s
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2006, 02:17:50 PM »
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Hope this works..

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Phuong
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2006, 02:59:41 AM »
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the star in the title means the file has bean changed.

regarding your color problem:
in the Color Management Policies:
set RGB:  to "perserve embedded profile"

this should fix the problem. also, consider checking all those "ask when opening" and "ask when pasting" check boxes so you'll always be in control of CMP.

sRGB is much smaller than ARGB. assigning ARGB into an sRGB image makes it overly saturated.


PS: change the Intent setting to Perceptual too, although it doesn't really matter at the moment - the engine will use RelCol for matrix profiles anyway but who knows, it might work in a near future
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 03:05:37 AM by Phuong » Logged
marc.s
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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2006, 05:34:05 AM »
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Hmm.. so all this time when I've saved for web they've still been in adobe rgb.. what a mess. It's even worse that they won't convert to look roughly the same; when I send the files to other people it doesn't help that they're set to preserve embedded profiles if they view them in their web browsers, right?

So how do I make sure they look correct on other people's web browsers?

Quote
the star in the title means the file has bean changed.

regarding your color problem:
in the Color Management Policies:
set RGB:  to "perserve embedded profile"

this should fix the problem. also, consider checking all those "ask when opening" and "ask when pasting" check boxes so you'll always be in control of CMP.

sRGB is much smaller than ARGB. assigning ARGB into an sRGB image makes it overly saturated.
PS: change the Intent setting to Perceptual too, although it doesn't really matter at the moment - the engine will use RelCol for matrix profiles anyway but who knows, it might work in a near future
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70743\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2006, 08:32:34 AM »
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Hmm.. so all this time when I've saved for web they've still been in adobe rgb.. what a mess. It's even worse that they won't convert to look roughly the same; when I send the files to other people it doesn't help that they're set to preserve embedded profiles if they view them in their web browsers, right?

So how do I make sure they look correct on other people's web browsers?

You can't, really, since most browsers are not properly color managed. The best you can do is to convert to sRGB and hope. Having RGB color management off is what was causing your problem. I second the recommendation to check all 3 of the boxes in the color management section, bit I'd leave Relative Colorimetric set as-is. RelCol can clip colors when converting to a smaller color space, but you can deal with that by soft-proofing and selective desaturation before converting color spaces. Perceptual is less likely to clip colors, but it is much more likely to cause a color cast that is more annoying to get rid of.
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marc.s
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2006, 10:03:49 AM »
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So when I want to upload to my website or similar I have to:

1) Save as srgb
2) Close and reopen without colour managing (so that it shows up as over-saturated)
3) Desaturate to taste

Is that correct? It seems incredibly clumsy that it can't just convert it to something that's reasonably close in srgb..

I'm also confused because I remember people noting that viewing adobe rgb files in web browsers they will appear less saturated and contrasty. I suppose this makes sense if the colour space hasn't been 'compressed' into the smaller space, but I don't understand why the opposite happens when it is (since the colours aren't more saturated, they're just allowed more space)..

Thank you for your help, I guess I might have to redo all my webgalleries.

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You can't, really, since most browsers are not properly color managed. The best you can do is to convert to sRGB and hope. Having RGB color management off is what was causing your problem. I second the recommendation to check all 3 of the boxes in the color management section, bit I'd leave Relative Colorimetric set as-is. RelCol can clip colors when converting to a smaller color space, but you can deal with that by soft-proofing and selective desaturation before converting color spaces. Perceptual is less likely to clip colors, but it is much more likely to cause a color cast that is more annoying to get rid of.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Phuong
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2006, 11:17:59 AM »
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Edit/Convert to profile...

then choose sRGB as destinaiton profile, you'll be all right.
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Phuong
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2006, 11:30:43 AM »
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RelCol can clip colors when converting to a smaller color space, but you can deal with that by soft-proofing and selective desaturation before converting color spaces.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jonathan, what do you mean by "selective desaturation"? turn onf soft-proofing and selectively desaturate the OOG areas? how do you do it?
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marc.s
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2006, 04:23:45 PM »
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Edit/Convert to profile...

then choose sRGB as destinaiton profile, you'll be all right.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70779\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But that's what I've done until now and that just leaves the srgb jpegs overly saturated..
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marc.s
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2006, 04:26:06 PM »
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Jonathan, what do you mean by "selective desaturation"? turn onf soft-proofing and selectively desaturate the OOG areas? how do you do it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70780\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

He's probably referring to only desaturating certain colours.. you can select which colour you want in several ways, for instance in hue/saturation, and then finetune the range and the gradient with the bars at the bottom..
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Phuong
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2006, 06:07:48 PM »
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marc you are still confused. no offense but i suggest you grab some book & do some homework.

either of these 3 will do:
Abhay Sharma's 'Understanding Color Management'
digital dog Andrew Rodney's 'Color Management'
Bruce Fraser's 'Real World Color Management'
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 06:09:17 PM by Phuong » Logged
photopat
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2006, 02:41:58 AM »
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Since you've turned off  the RGB colormanagement policies (have no idea why you do that) PS  is going to handle your file the same way as if it were untagged.

I'd recomend to  turn it on and click all alternatives for  Profile miss matchines so you'll get a dialog box asking you what to do everytime you've got a profile miss match.

To get the correct colors in "your" workflow you need to go to (after you've opened the file) EDIT->Assign Profile-> chose sRGB in this case since it's the colorspace you saved your image in.

If you haven't chosen to turn off RGB colormanagement policies  you could just have chosen to use the embedded profile (insted of the working space) in the dialog box when opening the file and the colors would be correct.


EDIT: After more careful reading I see that Phuong have more or less already said the same as I've have done.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 02:51:06 AM by photopat » Logged
marc.s
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2006, 05:16:03 AM »
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I think you're both missing the point..

I don't care about photoshop, when I save as jpeg it's not to view in photoshop, it's for other people to view my pictures on the web, etc.

As was mentioned earlier, web browsers and various image viewers may or may not ignore any profiles that have been assigned to the images. So one person will see it the way it's supposed to be seen and another will see it way too saturated.

That's why I said that I need it to look completely proper in srgb in a program that doesn't know anything about colour profiles. And apparently the only way to make it look right is the clumsy method I described earlier?
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 08:11:03 AM »
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So when I want to upload to my website or similar I have to:

1) Save as srgb
2) Close and reopen without colour managing (so that it shows up as over-saturated)
3) Desaturate to taste

No. There is never any reason to turn off color management. And you need to desaturate (if necessary) BEFORE converting to sRGB, or out-of-gamut colors will be clipped during conversion and there will be no point in editing the converted file.

If necessary, desaturate first, soft-proofing to sRGB to check for color clipping, then convert to sRGB and save a new copy of the file.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 08:15:47 AM »
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Jonathan, what do you mean by "selective desaturation"? turn onf soft-proofing and selectively desaturate the OOG areas? how do you do it?

I use the Hue/Saturation adjustment dialog, which allows you to individually adjust red, blue, green, yellow, cyan, and magenta. You can increase magenta saturation and simultaneously decrease green saturation, etc. If you want to get really advanced, create a saturation mask to reduce the amount of change to less-saturated areas.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2006, 08:18:02 AM »
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But that's what I've done until now and that just leaves the srgb jpegs overly saturated..

Only because your PS color magement settings are all f***ed up, and sRGB images are being displayed as if they are Adobe RGB, which makes them look overly-saturated in PS. Fix your color management seddings as instructed earlier, and this problem will go away.
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marc.s
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« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2006, 08:51:47 AM »
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Only because your PS color magement settings are all f***ed up, and sRGB images are being displayed as if they are Adobe RGB, which makes them look overly-saturated in PS. Fix your color management seddings as instructed earlier, and this problem will go away.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I did fix the settings, but it doesn't change anything. Once again, it's not in photoshop the srgb jpegs need to look good, it's in web browsers and similar programs.

When I softproof to srgb nothing changes, probably because my monitor can only display the srgb gamut. So it doesn't help anything to softproof. The only thing that works that I've tried is what I described before. I don't understand why there isn't a way to convert images into a smaller colour space and have them look roughly the same within that space without having to manually edit.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2006, 10:58:51 AM »
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The web by and large isn't color managed. Few web browsers use the display profile and an embedded profile (or the assumption the file is in sRGB) to properly preview the numbers. Most users don't calibrate and profile their displays. So the same numbers will preview differently.

The preview in Photoshop IS correct. That it doesn't look this way elsewhere doesn't change this fact.

When you soft proof in Photoshop and ask for Monitor RGB, you're seeing how that image would appear in YOUR web browser (which doesn't understand sRGB) since Photoshop is using your display profile to make the preview. But that doesn't mean anyone else will see this. Move the file to any other display, even with a good profile and it will likely appear differently than what you saw.
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Andrew Rodney
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Phuong
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2006, 11:21:43 AM »
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Only because your PS color magement settings are all f***ed up, and sRGB images are being displayed as if they are Adobe RGB, which makes them look overly-saturated in PS. Fix your color management seddings as instructed earlier, and this problem will go away.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70844\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


this is exactly what i wanted to say in the fisrt place, and why i suggested checking the three check boxes. by turning RGB policy off and turning the check boxes off, you are telling PS "Photoshop, you are now in charge of my RGB images. do whatever you wish."
of course, PS dont deny this 'favor'. so whatever images you give it, it says "image, you dont talk in whatever your profile is anymore. you are now talking in aRGB"
the result? well, sRGB images turn overly saturated, and prophotoRGB images (if you have any) turn overly desaturated.

PS: by the way thanks Jonathan for the selective desaturation tip!
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