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Author Topic: Saving as srgb in photoshop causes trouble  (Read 20608 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2006, 11:35:21 AM »
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Without the warning check boxes, the Policies can be real dangerous as seen in the screen dump here. With warning check boxes ON, the policies really don't do anything but alter the defaults you'll get when a warning dialog is popped. That's good because its a safety net. Unless you have some need to automate embedding a certain profile on all incoming files, the warnings should be on OR at least set the policy set to Preserve. Of the worst possible policies and off warning check box combo's you could make is OFF and no warnings, see here. Photoshop is being told to strip profiles from any document not in Adobe RGB (1998) and to assume all untagged documents are Adobe RGB (1998) which of course isn't the case for images going to the web (or non color managed applications, god forbid).
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2006, 02:36:22 PM »
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I read through here as much as I could concentrate on, but didn't anyone pick up on marc's original post the fact he changed his monitor profile on top of everything else?

That seems to create more of a "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" situation in terms of color origination.

What space during capture and edits did he perform while using the first monitor profile and was that profile correct to begin with since the second system profile gave a marked change to his previews that were OK before.

Maybe a start from scratch by establishing which monitor profile is the correct one would be the first thing to do along with the correct CM Color Settings in PS.

I'm now totally confused from this thread as to which way to go, myself.
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Phuong
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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2006, 03:34:32 PM »
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I read through here as much as I could concentrate on, but didn't anyone pick up on marc's original post the fact he changed his monitor profile on top of everything else?

That seems to create more of a "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" situation in terms of color origination.

What space during capture and edits did he perform while using the first monitor profile and was that profile correct to begin with since the second system profile gave a marked change to his previews that were OK before.

Maybe a start from scratch by establishing which monitor profile is the correct one would be the first thing to do along with the correct CM Color Settings in PS.

I'm now totally confused from this thread as to which way to go, myself.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70880\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


he's seeing different results from his same new monitor (images look fine on web browsers but ugly in PS). the point is, by turning RGB policies & warnings off, PS automatically STRIP OFF every image's profile if it's not aRGB (in his case) and ASSIGN (not convert) it with aRGB. hence the ugly result. and because now PS assumes aRGB is the correct profile, soft proofing shows almost no change because now the image is CONVERT (internally) to sRGB (and to his monitor profile) so the appearance now stays the same ("overly saturated") but the RGB values are changed.
in other words, with that same image, even though he sees it overly saturated in PS but if he saves it as it is (not convert to sRGB) and opens in web browser, it'll look normal.
digitaldog and Jonathan did addressed this btw.
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2006, 04:39:10 PM »
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Phuong,

Great, clear as mud.

My head's beginning to hurt.
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2006, 12:26:39 PM »
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I did fix the settings, but it doesn't change anything. Once again, it's not in photoshop the srgb jpegs need to look good, it's in web browsers and similar programs.

When I softproof to srgb nothing changes, probably because my monitor can only display the srgb gamut. So it doesn't help anything to softproof. The only thing that works that I've tried is what I described before. I don't understand why there isn't a way to convert images into a smaller colour space and have them look roughly the same within that space without having to manually edit.

OK, let me start over. Change your color management preferences to what is shown in your screenshot, then make the following changes in the Color Management Policies section:

Change all 3 dropdown list boxes (RGB, CMYK, and Gray) to Preserve Embedded Profiles.
Check Missing Profiles: Ask When Opening and Profile Mismatches: Ask When Pasting, but leave Profile Mismatches: Ask When Opening unchecked. This will force Photoshop to honor whatever profile is embedded in the image without asking you questions you aren't ready to answer correctly. After making these changes and restarting Photoshop, what you see in Photoshop is what your image really looks like, assuming your monitor is correctly profiled (which is something I cannot judge without seeing it firsthand).

When you're ready to make a web version of your image, desaturate colors if necessary, CONVERT (NOT assign) the image to sRGB, and execute a File | Save As from Photoshop's menu. If you convert, you may see over-saturated colors desaturate, but if all image colors fall within sRGB, the image won't change visibly--the only difference will be in the histogram if you set it to display all color channels. If saturation increases, you have assigned instead of converted, and deserve 40 lashes with Real World Color Management.

Once you have properly converted the image to sRGB, that's all you can do for web display. Every unprofiled/non-color-managed browser will display your image slightly differently, but sRGB is what they are all kinda/sorta trying to achieve, so it's your best average bet. Deviating from sRGB by editing for one particular unprofiled monitor will screw more people than it will benefit, and will make you look really clueless to people who look at your images with a profiled monitor.
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Schewe
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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2006, 03:32:15 PM »
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Just out of curiosity, what led you to the Color Managment RGB settings to OFF? OFF isn't really off, it's a cruel joke by the Photoshop engineers (or marketing) that lead some people to "think" it's off. But color management is always on in Photoshop since version 7. The only question is to what degree does the user have any control.

Pretty much all your problems have come from working with your settings to OFF...choose whatever working space you want in Photoshop (sRGB, Adobe RGB or Pro Photo RGB) and when preparing images for the web, just run an action to convert to sRGB and then use Safe For Web-you even get to see a preview of what the image will look like in "un-managed color" in the SFW preview.

You made you life pretty miserable by trying to turn off color management...
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Chris_T
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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2006, 08:13:04 AM »
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You made you life pretty miserable by trying to turn off color management...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70959\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A more accurate statement is that Adobe makes all our lives miserable with their color mismanagement implementation. But it does create career opportunities for hordes of "gurus" and "geniuses".
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marc.s
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2006, 07:13:24 AM »
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Ok, it's still not working, but I can't seem to explain it here without it being implied that I'm an idiot and without actually getting any further..

1) I've set all the settings as requested by Jonathan.
2) I'm working in adobe rgb and *convert* to srgb, saving the files as jpeg.
3) I then load that jpeg into a web browser (Mozilla) as well as ACDSee 5 and compare side to side with the file in Photoshop. The colours are too saturated anywhere but in Photoshop.
4) Just to clear things up on what's actually going on in Photoshop: If I load the jpeg I'm asked to either use the embedded profile, convert to document's colour space, or to ignore the profile. If I choose one of the two first options the file looks fine. If I choose the last it is too saturated. I assume this is how it's supposed to be.

So I'm still left with not being able to convert to jpeg and have the images show with normal saturation.

tlooknbill: I have no idea why I didn't have this problem before, it seems something has changed on my system and my original guess was that it was related to a new monitor profile, but that doesn't seem to be it..

Also for the record, my prints are fine (I send them to the lab as adobe rgb jpegs).
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Phuong
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2006, 11:18:52 PM »
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you should choose the first option: "use the embedded profile"
if you choose the last option "ignore the profile" it's essentially the same thing as turning the RGB policy off (the image's profile is stripped off, and aRGB is assigned to it. it the image's profile were pRGB i would turn out less saturated instead)

your monitor and its profile are fine. there's nothing wrong witht them.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 11:19:53 PM by Phuong » Logged
photopat
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2006, 02:04:00 AM »
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3) I then load that jpeg into a web browser (Mozilla) as well as ACDSee 5 and compare side to side with the file in Photoshop. The colours are too saturated anywhere but in Photoshop.

Well that's because all Mozilla browsers don't  supports colormanagement .
Safari is spot on regarding colors for me when I compare a file in PS and the same file on one of my web sites.

Firefox and Netscape are to saturated (as if I  set a hue/saturation layer in PS to about +10-15 saturation )


 About ACDSee 5 I have  no idea what that is ... Is that a pc app??? (that would explain things since I'm on a mac   )

EDIT: I did a search for  ACDSee 5 and if there is some sort of colormanagement in that app you might want to look at your preferences there since they most likley are wrong (as your settings in PS was)

Patrick.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 03:34:12 AM by photopat » Logged
Dennis
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2006, 08:30:52 AM »
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Well that's because all Mozilla browsers don't  supports colormanagement .
Read again: He has converted the image to sRGB (step 2) - therefore it should be rendered fine with any CM ignoring softwares like browsers.

Marc,
Have you tried "Save for Web..."? The image should look exactly like it looks in Mozilla. Have turned on a soft proof?
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marc.s
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2006, 09:28:41 AM »
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Well that's because all Mozilla browsers don't  supports colormanagement .

I know, but that's the whole point of this.. I want the image converted to srgb without having it look vastly differently in a non-colour managed app than it looks in adobe rgb in photoshop.

When I save in 'save for web' there is no problem. But when I 'save as' the pictures are always too saturated. I don't know what causes the difference.

The reason I can't always 'save for web' is that sometimes it says the files are too big and it recommends against it. I also would like to know what causes the difference.
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marc.s
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2006, 09:31:52 AM »
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Marc,
Have you tried "Save for Web..."? The image should look exactly like it looks in Mozilla. Have turned on a soft proof?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71464\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yep, save for web does indeed work, but I can't always save for web (I forget the warning, maybe it's an irrelevant one). Do you have any idea why it converts properly to srgb there withouth oversaturating?

I tried turning on and off softproofing, but see no difference whatsoever.. (I use it for my prints with a lab profile and it works fine with that).
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2006, 04:38:42 PM »
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Download the untagged PDI test image that's been converted to sRGB I've linked here and tell us if it looks oversaturated or correct looking in your nonCM browser.

Then drag it to your system, open in PS (don't convert) but assign sRGB, then assign your monitor profile and then AdobeRGB and see what previews you get. You should not see much of a change in saturation assigning your monitor or sRGB but a big change assigning AdobeRGB.

If the PDI target is correct looking assigning sRGB and viewed in your browser, but YOUR images look oversaturated converting to sRGB and viewed in your browser, then your images were either edited with a screwed up monitor profile or your digicam color space settings were botched or combination of both or you edited with Soft Proof on set to some other space or whatever.

Something is wacked and it's not the fault of color management because the majority of professionals and hobbyists like myself don't have this problem. And I've been researching this and implementing this technology for over 5 years and I've never had this problem on my 5 year old Mac OS 9.2.2 system and 8 year old calibrated CRT. And their are others with Windows system as well who don't have this problem.[attachment=835:attachment]
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elliot_n
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2006, 09:27:09 PM »
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My feeling is that your problem is related to your monitor and its profile.

Instead of converting to sRGB, try converting to your monitor profile. If this produces a good looking jpeg in your web browser, then there's something wrong with your monitor / monitor profile.

Resist the temptation to henceforth convert to your monitor profile prior to saving as a jpeg. It might look good on your monitor, but it won't on look good on anyone else's.

Converting to sRGB is the way to go - even if it looks shit in a web browser on your monitor.
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Chris_T
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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2006, 05:45:50 AM »
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I know, but that's the whole point of this.. I want the image converted to srgb without having it look vastly differently in a non-colour managed app than it looks in adobe rgb in photoshop.

When I save in 'save for web' there is no problem. But when I 'save as' the pictures are always too saturated. I don't know what causes the difference.

The reason I can't always 'save for web' is that sometimes it says the files are too big and it recommends against it. I also would like to know what causes the difference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71469\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

File size should not be the cause, but no one else seems to come up with an explanation.

After converting to 8-bit and srgb, what is the pixel/resolution size in Edit/Image Size? When converting from psd to jpg, I flatten the layers, delete the alpha channels, convert to 8-bit and srgb, resample to 100ppi and exact pixel dimensions in Image Size. Than and only then will I Save As jpg or SFW.

Not sure if this will fix your problem, but just a shot in the dark.
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marc.s
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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2006, 07:18:48 AM »
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Then drag it to your system, open in PS (don't convert) but assign sRGB, then assign your monitor profile and then AdobeRGB and see what previews you get. You should not see much of a change in saturation assigning your monitor or sRGB but a big change assigning AdobeRGB.

Well.. I guess it's all wrong then. When I assign srgb it desaturates quite strongly. Assigning adobe rgb doesn't change the image at all, and assigning monitor profile changes it somewhat.

Also, when I save for web it only look proper if I don't convert to srgb first. That really has me confused. To explain the steps:

1) raw image opened in photoshop, adobe rgb.
2) image is 'saved for web'.
3) everything is fine

but:

1) same image converted to srgb and then
2) image 'save for web' shows the preview as being too saturated (and it is)

Is it possible that there's something messed up with the srgb profile on my system?
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marc.s
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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2006, 07:22:19 AM »
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File size should not be the cause, but no one else seems to come up with an explanation.

After converting to 8-bit and srgb, what is the pixel/resolution size in Edit/Image Size? When converting from psd to jpg, I flatten the layers, delete the alpha channels, convert to 8-bit and srgb, resample to 100ppi and exact pixel dimensions in Image Size. Than and only then will I Save As jpg or SFW.

Not sure if this will fix your problem, but just a shot in the dark.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71524\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The whole file size thing is a bit of a mystery, the save for web function simly complains that the file is too large and memory errors may occur. It doesn't happen every time I save large files, so not sure what causes it.

I always flatten and convert to 8 bit before I save for web or regular 'save as', so the files are normal sizes, nothing crazy there..
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2006, 09:04:40 AM »
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Use "Save for Web" for monitor-sized images (1600x1200 or smaller) and it won't complain. But if you use it for full-res 1Ds images, it will complain and operate slowly.
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jani
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2006, 10:03:21 AM »
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Well.. I guess it's all wrong then. When I assign srgb it desaturates quite strongly. Assigning adobe rgb doesn't change the image at all, and assigning monitor profile changes it somewhat.
This seems reasonable enough.

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Also, when I save for web it only look proper if I don't convert to srgb first. That really has me confused. To explain the steps:

1) raw image opened in photoshop, adobe rgb.
2) image is 'saved for web'.
3) everything is fine

but:

1) same image converted to srgb and then
2) image 'save for web' shows the preview as being too saturated (and it is)

Is it possible that there's something messed up with the srgb profile on my system?
That doesn't sound likely, but it may be possible.

Here are three versions of the same image. The image was first imported from a raw file with ACR as ProPhoto RGB in 16-bit, then converted to 8-bit and Adobe RGB (relative intent, black point compensation on). According to the proof preview, there were no noticeable differences between ProPhoto RGB in 16-bit and Adobe RGB in 8-bit for this image.

Version #1 was converted to sRGB with relative intent, black-point compensation on, then saved as JPEG. #2 was assigned the sRGB profile, then saved as JPEG with the same settings as for #1. Version #3 was converted with "Save for web", very high quality, and no colour profile.



Here's a suggestion: why don't you take your original image as it is straight from the raw converter, resize it to e.g. 640x480, and save it as a PSD. Then you can let one of us have a look at it, and e.g. illustrate step-for-step what we're doing with exactly which settings.
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Jan
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