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Author Topic: Saving as srgb in photoshop causes trouble  (Read 21610 times)
Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2006, 04:04:14 PM »
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When you assign sRGB to the image I posted it desaturates considerably?

Your monitor profile is screwed up or you've got a wide gamut working space profile Photoshop is referencing as your system display profile.

Check what happens to this same sRGB file when wide gamut working space is load on my system as seen in PS from the captured screenshot attachment. Check the GMB CC red patch in the original sRGB image and it reads 222 in the red channel. That's just 33 levels away from clipping yet you indicate it's desaturated.

[attachment=837:attachment]
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marc.s
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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2006, 04:01:25 PM »
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Ok, I'm a little confused because tlooknbill and jani seem to say different things regarding the desaturation issue..

I just tried running someone else's monitor profile (he has the same monitor, and the profiles are very close) and it didn't make any difference. So I think my monitor profile is ok.

Not sure about what you mean by the wide gamut working space profile - I suggested earlier something is wrong with my srgb profile, but not sure if that's what you mean..?

Either way, since it works with save for web, I don't understand why it doesn't work with 'save as' - but at least I can save for web. I just can't convert to srgb before I save for web, then it gets too saturated (I have no idea why).

jani or anyone else, if you want me to send a file, just let me know..
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2006, 07:31:55 PM »
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Didn't mean to confuse. I'm only going by what you posted about what you saw when you opened  the sRGB test image I first linked. You indicated assigning sRGB to that untagged sRGB image in PS desaturated it considerably. Are we correct on that?

If so, it means your monitor profile or whatever profile is loaded in your system that PS is using to adjust tagged previews is a profile that has a gamut wider than sRGB. I mimiced this on my system by taking a screen shot of the same test image and assigning sRGB to it in PS while loading in my system the wide gamut RGB working space instead of my custom EyeOne Display profile.

On my Mac I get a live preview update of tagged images in PS when changing my system profile. Loading the Wide Gamut RGB profile made the sRGB tagged image considerably desaturated duplicating what you described on your system. This suggests that you have the wrong system profile PS is referencing to adjust previews to tagged images.

If my sRGB test image is not desaturating when assigning sRGB to the image on your system in PS, then forget what I said.
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Schewe
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2006, 11:05:20 PM »
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Here's the thing Marc, I think you've got some things kinda messed up in your color management workflow and have a problem in that your previous color settings were, in a word, wrong...

Here's what I suggest you do...

Open the Photoshop Color Settings and confirm that you have the settings set to the following:

Click on the settings drop down and select "North American Prepress 2" (assuming Photoshop CS2)

That will give you an Photoshop working space RGB setting of Adobe RGB.

Under Color Management Policies make sure ALL of them are set to "Preserve Embeded Profiles".

Under the policies, keep all of the warnings on (at this point).

This will assume the following-that you wish to work in Adobe RGB as your Photoshop working space and that images that you wish to put on the web will want to be in sRGB.

At some point, you are going to have to do some figgering...in the past, you had your color settings set to No Color Management and that means that SOME of your files really are in Adobe RGB, and some really are in sRGB and you really are not sure which are which. But with the color settings now configured, you should be able to straighten out your problems.

If you open an image with your current new settings of Adobe RGB as your working space and Preserve Embedded Profiles and warnings to all your policies, opening an image should follow the following senario:

You open an image and it pops a warning about no embedded profile, continue opening the image and look at the file. If the image looks "right" you can assume the image is indeed in Adobe RGB-even if there is no profile embedded. Then go into the Edit "Assign Profile" and assign it Adobe RGB.

If you open an image with no profile and the image is over saturated, you've got an sRGB image. Go to Edit "Assign Profile" and assign it sRGB.

The only time you would see an image look de-saturated and dark is where you open an image with an sRGB working space and the image SHOULD be Adobe RGB.

As long as you preserve embedded profiles, and your images have profiles, your images should "look right" in Photoshop. The only time something will look "off" is when either the wrong profile has been assigned, or you've treated an image with no profile wrong.

If you work on an image in Adobe RGB, and the image looks "right", to put it up on the web, you'll want to CONVERT to sRGB and then ideally use Save for Web. Note, unless you specifically select the ICC Profile option in Save for Web, the profile will be stripped out. That's ok since saving out for the web is really only used as a single destination file and not a working file, so go ahead and strip out the profile. In the future, you'll be able to tell when you re-open an image from Save for Web since only those files will ever have no profile emdedded.

If you are working on an image with your Photoshop set to Adobe RGB, an image saved in Adobe RGB or an image CONVERTED to sRGB will look the same on your monitor-if and only if you have your color settings set to Preserve Embedded Profiles. You can work on sRGB and Adobe RGB files at the same time and Photoshop will correct for the differences. Note that copy/paste between images will pop a dialog about a profile mismatch, always "Preserve Appearance" not the numbers.

The ONLY time you should ever see any differences is where the profile in the image has been stripped and you've assigned the wrong profile to the image.
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marc.s
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« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2006, 09:06:51 AM »
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Didn't mean to confuse. I'm only going by what you posted about what you saw when you opened  the sRGB test image I first linked. You indicated assigning sRGB to that untagged sRGB image in PS desaturated it considerably. Are we correct on that?

Well. I have the warning of 'missing profile - ask when opening' set to OFF. Then I open the image (without getting a warning) and it looks fine. Then I select 'assign profile' and pick srgb. Already in the preview the image is strongly desaturated.

If I set the 'warning of missing profile - ask when opening' to ON I'm asked if I want to assing profile srgb and then convert document to working rgb. If I do that it shows up a little bit desaturated compared to the image in Internet Explorer. Now, if I then select 'assign profile' - srgb again it desaturates strongly.

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If so, it means your monitor profile or whatever profile is loaded in your system that PS is using to adjust tagged previews is a profile that has a gamut wider than sRGB. I mimiced this on my system by taking a screen shot of the same test image and assigning sRGB to it in PS while loading in my system the wide gamut RGB working space instead of my custom EyeOne Display profile.

Well, it shouldn't.. I use a NEC 2090 and profiled it with an Optix XR..
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marc.s
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« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2006, 09:12:51 AM »
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Schewe, I followed your instructions step by step, and still have the same problems I'm afraid.

Btw, all my psd files are saved properly as Adobe RGB I'm pretty sure (I did a few random checks again just now). I'm always working in Adobe RGB with them, and I always just save them as such (and it always has 'adobe rgb' ticked in the profile box).

Thanks everyone who's been helping out (I'm still waiting to hear from jani whom I sent some example files). I really don't know why it's weird the way it is, but at least I have a way of making it work for web (I make sure NOT to convert to srgb, then I use 'save for web' and that works..)
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Schewe
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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2006, 10:45:55 AM »
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Well. I have the warning of 'missing profile - ask when opening' set to OFF. Then I open the image (without getting a warning) and it looks fine. Then I select 'assign profile' and pick srgb. Already in the preview the image is strongly desaturated.

If I set the 'warning of missing profile - ask when opening' to ON I'm asked if I want to assing profile srgb and then convert document to working rgb. If I do that it shows up a little bit desaturated compared to the image in Internet Explorer. Now, if I then select 'assign profile' - srgb again it desaturates strongly.

Then if your working space is Adobe RGB, the file that looks DESATURATED is already IN Adobe RGB...Assign is not the same as Convert. It's not clear at all how you've gone about working with profiles since for a period of time, you were working with your Color Settings in Photoshop set to OFF-which in any senario is simply wrong.

Ignore for the moment, how the image looks in Explorer. At this point you need to figure out what's wrong with your Photoshop settings and how you are using (or not using) profiles...
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2006, 11:08:08 AM »
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Are fresh images giving you the same grief as existing images?
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2006, 12:32:55 PM »
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Well. I have the warning of 'missing profile - ask when opening' set to OFF. Then I open the image (without getting a warning) and it looks fine. Then I select 'assign profile' and pick srgb. Already in the preview the image is strongly desaturated.

This behavior is normal. With the color management settings you specified, when you open an RGB image with no profile, Photoshop assumes Adobe RGB and assigns Adobe RGB to the image. With a web graphic created in sRGB this will result in a stongly oversaturated image when you view it in Photoshop. The main problem is that you are saving your images without an attached profile, which makes them RGB "mystery meat" requiring the computer to guess the original profile. Computers suck at guessing, hence your problem. Turn the "missing profile" warning back on, and manually assign sRGB (NOT Adobe RGB) when opening untagged web graphics. And get in the habit of including a profile in every image you save, so that Photoshop knows what it's dealing with when opening a file.

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If I set the 'warning of missing profile - ask when opening' to ON I'm asked if I want to assing profile srgb and then convert document to working rgb. If I do that it shows up a little bit desaturated compared to the image in Internet Explorer. Now, if I then select 'assign profile' - srgb again it desaturates strongly.
Well, it shouldn't.. I use a NEC 2090 and profiled it with an Optix XR..

This is also normal behavior. Unless your monitor's color profile perfectly matches sRGB (which ain't never gonna happen), there is always going to be some minor differences between what you see in Photoshop (a color managed application) and any non-color-managed app. Profiling your monitor does not make non-color-managed apps display images with correct colors; a profile is nothing more than a mathematical description of your moniotor's color performance. Color managed apps like Photoshop use the profile to send the correct RGB numbers to the monitor for a given color, Explorer doesn't. It sends the image's RGB numbers directly to the monitor.

When you open your untagged image file and assign sRGB, that is correct. But then you pointlessly convert to Adobe RGB, which alters the RGB color numbers in the image and tags the image with the Adobe RGB profile. The image looks the same, but now you have changed all of the RGB numbers inside of it. So when you assign sRGB after doing this, you now have an image with Adobe RGB color numbers, but you are incorrectly interpreting those numbers as sRGB. This will always result in an oversaturated image.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 12:57:52 PM by Jonathan Wienke » Logged

marc.s
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« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2006, 03:18:24 PM »
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Jonathan, I'm a little confused, and not sure I made myself clear. But when I open the index file that was attached in this thread, the only way to make it look properly saturated is to choose option one when I open it and get the missing profile warning - 'don't colour manage' or option two -  'Assign working RGB - Adobe RGB'. If I pick 'assign profile sRGB' it opens as flat and desaturated whether I tick 'and then convert to working RGB' or not. So the third option is no good. Since it's an sRGB image I thought it should be opened as sRGB?

edit - properly saturated relatively to what it looks like in internet explorer and similar programs given that I don't know what the index file is supposed to look like.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 03:27:22 PM by marc.s » Logged
marc.s
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« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2006, 03:25:58 PM »
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Then if your working space is Adobe RGB, the file that looks DESATURATED is already IN Adobe RGB...Assign is not the same as Convert. It's not clear at all how you've gone about working with profiles since for a period of time, you were working with your Color Settings in Photoshop set to OFF-which in any senario is simply wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71777\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm not sure which part of my post you were responding to.. I'm aware that converting and assigning are two different things, I was just noting that when I work with images I always open the Raw files into Photoshop from ACR as Adobe RGB, and the colour space in Photoshop is already set to Adobe RGB. Then when I save them as psd nothing is changed as far as I know. So I'm not sure why there should be a problem with those files..

Dark Penguin - yeah, I'm having the same issue with all images. I'm pretty confused about it all because I see what I see on my monitor and prints, but I'm apparently not able to convey it accurately here. I'm also undoubtedly missing some points in the posts that are attempting to help me.

FWIW Jani looked at my samples and he found the opposite of me - that my regular conversion works fine (into sRGB), but that 'save for web' conversion doesn't work. And I find the exact opposite!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 03:28:04 PM by marc.s » Logged
jani
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« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2006, 04:19:26 PM »
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FWIW Jani looked at my samples and he found the opposite of me - that my regular conversion works fine (into sRGB), but that 'save for web' conversion doesn't work. And I find the exact opposite!
To be specific, what I wrote was that "save for web" without conversion first will leave the file looking desaturated, since it's still essentially in Adobe RGB, but is interpreted as something closer to sRGB. "Save for web" with conversion first seems to render similar colours in e.g. Firefox as to that displayed for the original in Photoshop.

Before responding to your reply to me, I guess I should've read up on what was written here, because I think Jonathan Wienke's last response explains what happens.

My responses are based on what I see on my monitor, and perhaps the "normally saturated" original image that I see is over-saturated according to what you think it should be.
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Jan
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« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2006, 04:58:05 PM »
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I was just noting that when I work with images I always open the Raw files into Photoshop from ACR as Adobe RGB, and the colour space in Photoshop is already set to Adobe RGB. Then when I save them as psd nothing is changed as far as I know. So I'm not sure why there should be a problem with those files..

There shouldn't be...but you've stated previously that your color settings were RGB Color Management OFF and no warnings for Profile Mismatches, Ask when Pasting not Missing Profiles. Which as has been stated is wrong...

So, again, I suggest you adopt "North American Prepress 2" as your color settings.

The fact is, without knowing EXACTLY how your color settings are set up and EXACLTY how you are dealing with files upon open, I'm afraid you are simply doomed to have a color management mess on your hands...
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2006, 06:09:28 PM »
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marc,

Just to simply confirm that your monitor profile is OK.

When assigning sRGB to the first linked sRGB PDI test image, does it match closely to the preview in Internet Exporer?

If so, then your profile is OK.
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Phuong
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« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2006, 08:53:48 PM »
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Jonathan, I'm a little confused, and not sure I made myself clear. But when I open the index file that was attached in this thread, the only way to make it look properly saturated is to choose option one when I open it and get the missing profile warning - 'don't colour manage' or option two -  'Assign working RGB - Adobe RGB'. If I pick 'assign profile sRGB' it opens as flat and desaturated whether I tick 'and then convert to working RGB' or not. So the third option is no good. Since it's an sRGB image I thought it should be opened as sRGB?

edit - properly saturated relatively to what it looks like in internet explorer and similar programs given that I don't know what the index file is supposed to look like.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

marc, that is EXACTLY what we all do.
when the opened image has a different color space than PS's color space, we use that image's color space as a working space, therefore, avoiding conversion and altering image's pixels' values, which means you keep the image's information untouched.
and because you use the image's color space as working space, the image's colors look normal as what it is, no over or under saturated.

all in all, no offense but i think you dont clearly and fully understand the color management workflow, which was the reason i suggested you to find and read digitaldog's books.

now here's the deal: if, after you have read that book, and it still dont solve your problem, you can cut my head off my shoulder.
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Schewe
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« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2006, 09:12:02 PM »
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now here's the deal: if, after you have read that book, and it still dont solve your problem, you can cut my head off my shoulder.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ooooh. . .gonna sell tickets?

I agree with Phuong (although my offer if it doesn't work, I'll buy you a beer is less bloody) and think your previous settings have kinda goofed you up and you're still trying to recover from it.

In the meantime while Amazon shipps your Color Management for Photographers book, you might try some of the PDF's posted on Adobe at: [a href=\"http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/ps_pro_primers.html]Adobe digital photography white papers and primers[/url]-particularly the one by Bruce Fraser and I titled "A Color Managed Raw Workflow".
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2006, 11:29:25 PM »
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Having been playing at this digital stuff for only about two and a half years, I can still remember when I first began to realize that "color management" was a big and complicated deal. I'm still struggling from time to time, but folks like Andrew, Bruce, Jeff, and a few others really do make it all make sense (at least some of the time      .)

So yes: Do get Andrew's book, and read Jeff and Bruce's papers (several times if necessary.)

My heartiest thanks to all the gurus who take the time and trouble to explain this stuff to us mortals!

Eric
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-Eric Myrvaagnes

http://myrvaagnes.com  Visit my website. New images each season.
Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2006, 07:44:29 AM »
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Jonathan, I'm a little confused, and not sure I made myself clear. But when I open the index file that was attached in this thread, the only way to make it look properly saturated is to choose option one when I open it and get the missing profile warning - 'don't colour manage' or option two -  'Assign working RGB - Adobe RGB'. If I pick 'assign profile sRGB' it opens as flat and desaturated whether I tick 'and then convert to working RGB' or not. So the third option is no good. Since it's an sRGB image I thought it should be opened as sRGB?

edit - properly saturated relatively to what it looks like in internet explorer and similar programs given that I don't know what the index file is supposed to look like.

"relatively to what it looks like in internet explorer" is a foundation based on quicksand; the relationship between what an image looks like in Photoshop and IE will vary greatly from machine to machine, depending on variations in each machine's monitor. It's sort of like comparing your reflection in the bathroom mirror to what you see in a carnival fun-house mirror--the fun-house reflection is going to be distorted and different, but that doesn't make the bathroom mirror's image any less valid. Non-color-managed applications (and even color managed apps without accurate profiles and proper configuration) are basically fun-house mirrors displaying your photos; they just distort colors and tonality instead of spatial relationships.
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David Good
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« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2006, 09:24:03 AM »
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Just a thought, if you are viewing your image in Explorer with your calibrated monitor, how does it look on another system that is not calibrated?

Eric wrote:
So yes: Do get Andrew's book, and read Jeff and Bruce's papers (several times if necessary.)
My heartiest thanks to all the gurus who take the time and trouble to explain this stuff to us mortals!
Amen to that!
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marc.s
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« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2006, 02:22:59 PM »
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marc,

Just to simply confirm that your monitor profile is OK.

When assigning sRGB to the first linked sRGB PDI test image, does it match closely to the preview in Internet Exporer?

If so, then your profile is OK.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, no.. if I open it I'm asked whether to 'leave as is - don't colour manage', assign adobe rgb, or assign other profile (srgb). If I assign sRGB I get a less saturated image than the one that shows in IE.
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