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Author Topic: Canon shutter delay times  (Read 5090 times)
Gregory
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« on: July 19, 2006, 12:11:21 PM »
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I began photography with a Canon AE-1 many years ago, and over time have used the EOS-620, the EOS 5 and now the EOS-350D. photography always felt easier with the film models. when using the 350D, I find it particularly hard to photograph the people expressions I see. the image is always a micro-second too late. the shutter delay seems to be significantly longer than with my other cameras. I could be wrong.

does anyone know the shutter delay values for the Canon EOS-5, EOS-350D and EOS-5D (the camera I'm considering upgrading to from the 350D).

does anyone know other important reasons for upgrading to the 5D from the 350D? (other than the wonderfully bright viewfinder and the much improved LCD review screen; albeit sub-par compared to some of the other 'one shot' cameras now available)
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benInMA
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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2006, 12:29:50 PM »
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5D - 75ms shutter lag, 145ms blackout time
350D - 100ms shutter lag, 170ms blackout time
20D/30D - 65ms shutter lag, 110ms blackout time
1D - 40ms/55ms shutter lag, 87ms blackout time

I can't seem to find many timings for the film cameras but my guess is they are somewhere between the 5D and 350D in terms of lag & blackout, but AF is slower unless you're talking about a 1 series film camera.

In general as you move up the line you are also going to have faster AF.  The 5D AF is just slightly faster then the 350D/20D/30D and the 1D AF is faster still.
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Gregory
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2006, 01:11:08 PM »
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thank you for the lag times. the fact that I'm finding it hard to photograph expressions when I see them must simply be a product of my age ;-)

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In general as you move up the line you are also going to have faster AF. The 5D AF is just slightly faster then the 350D/20D/30D and the 1D AF is faster still.
focus-and-position is ok for non-small subjects (ie, not birds where the DOF is 1/4" or less) but tracking/ie AI Servo mode is practically useless. I don't know how those photo-journalists get their wonderful photos.

my problem with Canon's AF 'AI Servo' is that almost none of my moving subjects are in the middle of the screen and I never know where in the frame they'll be until I actually hold up the camera so setting a focus point beforehand is pointless. turning all of them on is also useless because Canon's 'intelligent' auto-focus is very dumb (at least with the 350D) and tends to choose the closest object in the frame regardless of its position; usually the wrong object. I guess if you shoot with all of your subjects in the middle of the frame, you'll be happy with Canon's AF but I don't and I'm not.

a lot of my shooting is nature with manual focus because auto-focus is only useful to a point when you're dealing with that 1/8-1/4" DOF. but that's where the larger viewfinder would hopefully be helpful. wouldn't it be easier for me to accurately see the focus-state in the large viewfinder?

the 1 series is not good for me. I'm not a disciplined photographer (most of you are extremely disciplined) and I prefer holding the camera rather than using a tripod. the 1 series cameras are far too heavy to hold in position while waiting for a bird to appear nearby. and they're expensive!!!

again, thank you for the lag times.


(edit: changed 'subjects' to 'moving subjects')
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 08:04:54 PM by Gregory » Logged

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Gregory
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2006, 01:18:59 PM »
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excuse me. what is the blackout time? time to save an image to the card during which the camera is inoperable?
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benInMA
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2006, 01:22:27 PM »
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If you've not used the 20D/30D/5D/1D don't assume the focus on the more expensive cameras would not be helpful.

However I do not understand why you would think Servo AF would be useful or required for portraits or people photography.

Personally I have never let the camera choose the focus mode with AI Servo whether it was with my Elan 7, my 10D, or the 5D, perhaps that is a mistake, but I have nearly always used One Shot for people photography, and I turn on Servo AF when I know I am explicitly going to be tracking a moving target like a flying bird.

Birds & other animals present a problem here of course.  My experience is One shot is most reliable for a stationary target, Servo AF is most useful for a moving target.  If the camera chose correctly, it can certainly switch back and forth in AI Servo mode faster then the operator can manually switch between One Shot and Servo AF.

If the camera incorrectly chooses Servo AF for a stationary target it almost always seems to move the focus to an undesirable area while you are framing the subject.

Lag time would seem most responsible if you're having trouble catching expressions, but you might also be seeing the effect from the large film viewfinder to the much smaller XT viewfinder.  In the case you are/were using Manual Focus the larger viewfinder on the film camera would have great benefits.

edit: Blackout time is the time the viewfinder is blocked by the mirror while a shot is being taken.  This effects your ability to track a moving subject or shoot a series of expressions on a persons face.  A 1D is blacking out the viewfinder for 1/2 the time your 350D is, allowing you to see more of the action and stay prepared for what you are going to see next.  For a single portrait shot though it matters less.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 01:33:18 PM by benInMA » Logged
Tim Gray
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2006, 01:36:31 PM »
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excuse me. what is the blackout time? time to save an image to the card during which the camera is inoperable?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the time for the mirror to return so you can see through the viewfinder.
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Gregory
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« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2006, 01:37:40 PM »
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Ben, thank you for the reply.

apparently, my previous message wasn't very accurate. I too only use AI Servo for moving objects but have great problems with it because I don't know in which part of the frame the subjects will be until I lift the camera up, and because my subjects don't normally stay in the same position within the frame while I'm tracking them. this is especially true for people shots. it's a little easier to use AI Servo when tracking birds.

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In the case you are/were using Manual Focus the larger viewfinder on the film camera would have great benefits.
thank you. that's good to know.
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benInMA
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« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2006, 01:42:11 PM »
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Gregory I'm a little confused.

Does the XT allow you to choose which focus mode you're using?

I would assume your film cameras (at least the EOS5/A2E) allowed you to but the Rebel XT does not... that would certainly explain some of your frustration.

I think lots of us probably claim this as one of the big reasons we avoided the Digital Rebels when transitioning from film cameras.
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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2006, 04:18:08 PM »
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This whole thread is so confusing it's making my head hurt.  First of all, bear in mind that (if I recall correctly) the XT has *three* selectable AF modes: one shot, AI servo, and "AI focus," which purports to choose intelligently between the other two.  Whoever came up with AI focus should be shot.  Don't use it.

Nill
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benInMA
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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2006, 04:30:38 PM »
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Ah OK, the XT is the first Rebel to give you control of the AF mode.  In the past this was a differentiator between Rebels and all other more expensive Canon (D)SLRs.
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jani
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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2006, 05:53:58 PM »
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I don't know how those photo-journalists get their wonderful photos.
While I'm not an experienced PJ myself, I have a slight inkling of an idea how this happens:

1) They often have quite a bit of experience.
2) They take a lot of pictures, every time.
3) They often use 1-series cameras (or similar Nikons), and take advantage of the quicker, more precise AF and the better response time.

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the 1 series is not good for me. I'm not a disciplined photographer (most of you are extremely disciplined) and I prefer holding the camera rather than using a tripod. the 1 series cameras are far too heavy to hold in position while waiting for a bird to appear nearby. and they're expensive!!!
That's a shame, because e.g. the 1D MkII is really nice for taking pictures; I've tried one on three different occasions, and the last time I borrowed it for two days.*

The response time is clearly superior to that of the 20D (which I own); the focusing is definitely more accurate and quicker to boot.

The downside is that the user interface is a bit more clunky; my guess is that this is partially due to reduce the mechanical complexity for the dust/moisture seals, and partially because of tradition.

The graphical menu system's user interface is awful, but you'll learn to live with it.

Sure, it's a heavy camera, at twice the weight of the 20D, but you'll develop the muscles , and it helps keeping the monster steady for that crisp bird shot.


* The reason I don't own one yet, is that I'm waiting for Photokina to see what Canon comes up with next.  
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Jan
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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2006, 06:17:05 PM »
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I don't know how those photo-journalists get their wonderful photos.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71152\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Practice and good ol' knowing when to trip the shutter.  PJs and sports shooters were taking excellent photographs years before any AF system was ever made.

1/2 the challege in photography is learning to work past the limitations of your gear and knowing your gear well enough to where you can avoid some of those limitations.

I've taken good PJ and sports photos with my non-Xt digital rebel.  It just takes time and practice and patience.  Keep it up, you will get it!
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 06:17:48 PM by macgyver » Logged
Gregory
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2006, 08:12:41 PM »
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That's a shame, because e.g. the 1D MkII is really nice for taking pictures; I've tried one on three different occasions, and the last time I borrowed it for two days.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not a professional photographer, and it would therefore be very difficult to justify to myself and my better half the expense of buying one of the 1D cameras. and they are really heavy! but I do agree; you'll grow muscles as you continue to use them, and the shots will be steadier because of the extra weight, at least for the first minute or so that you hold the camera up to take a photo.

but still, the 1D camera with either a 70-200/2.8 + 2x or a 300/2.8 + 2x would be *really* heavy! and I think holding a 500/4.0 +/- 1.4x|2x would be out of the question.
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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2006, 10:17:42 PM »
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but still, the 1D camera with either a 70-200/2.8 + 2x or a 300/2.8 + 2x would be *really* heavy! and I think holding a 500/4.0 +/- 1.4x|2x would be out of the question.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I spend hours on end holding a 1D Mark II with a 400 f/2.8 and 1.4x mounted, which is heavier still.  Nothing to it really the secret trick is using a monopod.  ;-)

Nill
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Gregory
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2006, 11:25:40 PM »
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hi Nill.

what are you photographing, holding the camera for "hours on end"?

which monopod are you using?

I think one of my problems with using tripods is that the birds can appear (roughly 5 to 15 feet from me) at any position in front or to the side of me, at any vertical angle up or down from where I'm located. I sometimes need to spin around very quickly and get the photo within 1 or 2 seconds, sometimes a few seconds more. that's pretty hard to do with a tri/mono-pod.

if I was going to use a mono-pod, I'd prefer one whose height can be adjusted with a single button push and whose mechanics helped to lift the camera when I wanted to extend the mono-pod further upward. I don't think such a mono-pod exists yet, does it?
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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2006, 07:26:45 PM »
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I'm shooting sports, and I'm shooting constantly, not really waiting around for something to happen.  Well, in baseball I guess you're waiting around for something to happen, but I shoot mostly soccer and basketball.  I do handhold for basketball, usually with two 1-series bodies.  I'm sitting on the floor and can put the camera in my lap when I'm not shooting, but I'm shooting pretty constantly there too but that's with smaller lenses, up to the 200 f/1.8.  In any event, the only thing that really gets tired is my knees.

When I shoot with a monopod, I use the Gitzo 1588 with no head.  But I don't need any up and down range of motion to speak of, just side to side.  I do have to pick up and run sometimes though.  ;-)

For mobile birding I should think that a sturdy monopod with a gimbal head would be the ticket.  That would give you excellent control, zero effective weight, and almost full range of motion up and down.  Of course, I speak from the safety of ignorance of any real experience there.  I do believe, however, that most serious bird shooters use tripods and/or monopods.

EDIT:  On reflection, it strikes me that my basketball shooting is very similar to your bird shooting.  My 200 f/1.8 might be almost as heavy as a 500 f/4, I'm not sure.  In any event, I wouldn't let the extra weight of the  body deter you.  The higher keeper ratio afforded by the 1-series' astonishing responsiveness will more than make up for it.  

FURTHER EDIT:  You might also be interested in this support gizmo called the GoPod.  For discussion look at this link and scroll down to the last item:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/the_bag/uwes_tripods/essay.html

Nill
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« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 07:35:57 PM by Nill Toulme » Logged
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