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Author Topic: leaf aptus 75 split sensor-colorshift? for Jair..  (Read 22691 times)
zzzone
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« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2006, 05:19:16 PM »
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izaak

I think you absolutely right in your comments.  I went to Photokina last week to look primarily at the Leaf products, most probably to be mounted on a Cambo WDS, so this centrefold problem is very relevant to me and many others.  Fortunately I haven't made the purchase yet but I wasn't far away from doing so.  Yair is a really helpful guy, flew back with him from Photokina to the UK.  However, all that said these problems are very serious.  At present all of the above is making me looking again at the Phase backs which I had previously discounted because of their more prominent lens cast issue.  But at least P1 do have a solution to the problem.

Steve
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eronald
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« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2006, 05:21:18 PM »
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Someone at Leaf needs to be pushed to adress this, and find a solution for the photographers affected. I just don't think it should be Yair, he looks to be at the bottom of the food chain, and may even be frightened to get caught in the fallout.

This is one of those cases where the internet allows consumers to circulate the negative features of a product. Keep posting, and something will give ...

Edmund
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pixjohn
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« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2006, 05:39:35 PM »
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Caracalla, you are not missing that much on the Leaf forum. You will see mostly the same topics. I would like to see the Leaf forum read only for none Leaf owners.
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pixjohn
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« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2006, 05:42:02 PM »
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To Leaf,

I am at the point that I do not see a solution to this problem. Something changed between the back I tested and production. Everything I posted here is not news to Leaf. I even heard from someone that they see the same problem shooting the Aptus 65 on a H1.

I have spent a lot of money on my Aptus 75 and live video dongle. I would like to give Leaf a chance to make good on a new working back. Either an Aptus 75 or next generation back.  My other option is to go with a phaseone P45+ since it now has live video.

I see and read a lot of promises from DB manufacture, but they cannot live up to them. It is not just Leaf,

1) Where is the beta for 10.1?  When I first purchased my back I was told live video would be in version 10 in a few months. (6 months later?)


2) I have figured out a software work around for the centerline, but its very time consuming. The other issue I have with the gain filter it limits the look to my files. Sometimes with longer lenses I want the lens fall off, but canít achieve the look because of the line. How long before Leaf builds the custom gain into V10 with 1 single shot? The standalone gain adjuster does not work for my style of shooting tethered and V8 takes way to long to shot a gain adjuster.


3) Another issue I have it resale. Is my back going to be worth less $$ one day because of the centerline?

I have been on the phone with Leaf from Israel, NY and CA.  When I spoke to NY today I got the impression that, itís just the way it is. I do believe Leaf needs to stop making people feel likes itís only a few backs that have the problem. Stop taking the Bush administration point of view.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 05:43:22 PM by pixjohn » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2006, 05:55:18 PM »
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All,

First, I would like to apologize for keeping it silent for more than 2 hours on a Friday night...some of you states side may forget that here on the island we are some 5-8 hours ahead of you, but anyway.

Anyone who follows this forum, knows that since the first post regarding the "centrefold" issue, I have been passing on any information I had that could have helped, in both directions.

Any current user who contacted us with this issue, has being taken care of in the best possible way under the circumstances, either on or off-line.
There is no magic here and our people are working hard to find a solution, as crude or as elegant as it may be and we are doing our best to keep these customers informed with any updates.

To put things into perspective, off the several hundreds of Aptus 75 backs that were shipped so far, there are only 15-20 cases world-wide that are currently being dealt with. This is by no means to diminish any of these cases.

The ultimate solution has yet to be found. This may turn out to be a design update at the sensor level, or a firmware/ software fix. We currently have several faithful customers helping us in testing a few of these options.
There is a Leaf Custom Gain Adjuster utility that allows the user to correct any effected file. This app not only fixes the "Centrefold", but it also addresses any colour shifts and lens fall-off/ vignetting. This is not the most elegant and straightforward fix - more likely serving as a test bed for a new algorithm later to be implemented into our capture software.

If at any point down the line, a change in sensor design comes up and resolves this issue, this will of course be everyone's most desired solution.

Wide-Angle photography seems to be the most challenging for digital devices, most certainly when non retro-focal lenses are in use and shifts are being applied.
All digital backs suffer from it to some extent, in one way or another. The solutions from the manufacturers are different to one another, some work better than others.

So at the moment, if one is to choose a back for this type of work. The Aptus 75 is still one of the most capable of producing great results. It may require additional steps to achieve that, but this is, as I said before, a temporary measure until a final solution has been set.

For any further info and direct communication with our support team, you are most welcome to email them via leaf.support@creo.com

Please note that I was never appointed to represent Leaf on this forum. I have started contributing several months ago out of personal interest.
If it turns out that I have to take the fire here, then be it, but I would appreciate it if the discussion can be kept on a professional level, saving any personal attacks. I'd also appreciate it if anyone pointing fingers could post under a real name, makes the conversation allot more comfortable.

Have a good weekend

Yair

Creo UK Ltd., a subsidiary of Kodak.
---------------------------------------
Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
yair.shahar@creo.com | www.leaf-photography.com
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 06:12:27 PM by yaya » Logged
mkravit
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« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2006, 06:41:22 PM »
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Without going into a lot of detail and naming names (I have agreed not to repeat a lot of what has been told to me by Leaf, their reps and others) I have spoken at length with folks in Israel, the USA and others. The problem is acknowledged by Leaf and is NOT limited to the Aptus 75 and cameras with movements. A number of Aptus 22's have had the problem as far back as a year orso ago. So Leaf has know about this for quite some time.

In fact, I received a call from a film director friend of mine who tells me that one of the major HDTV cameras is also suffering from the centerfold issue. I don't know if that device uses the Dalsa chip but in my opinion this is a Dalsa problem and Leaf and Sinar are having to deal with it.

After I returned by Aptus 75 to my dealer who sent it to Leaf I received an Aptus 22 loaner. It is a nice gesture but took way too long after I continually demanded a loaner. I was asked to be patient as Leaf was working on the issue and on the verge of a solution. The solution unfortunately is a gain adjustment file that leaves the file looking unacceptable for my use.

I bought my Aptus 75 February 26, 2006....it was not delivered until late June. I found the centerfold problem in mid July and returned the unit August 8. It is now October 6 and still there is no fix in sight. Today I was notified it could be another month to three months until I receive a new back. 6 months is a long time to have this kind of money tied up.

As far as the suggestion that tha Aptus is not appropriate for wide angle lenses and cameras with movements I can only say that I was assured that the Leaf back was more appropriate than the Phase product due to the significant color fringing the Phase exhibits with camera movements. This was not an issue, was discussed and deemed a good architectural solution.

Yair is a first class guy! He is genuinely concerned and has done everything he can to help even though his not a USA rep. Anyone who takes him to task is off base and should apologize. Yair should be commended for his participation in these forums and not chided.

It is also my opinion and feeling that the Leaf position is comprised of political talking points that trickle down through the internet by proxy. They are comprised of some fact and some optomistic pandering. The reality of the situations is that there are significantly more than 15-20 backs with this problem. I personally know almost that many people who are experiencing the problem.

As time goes on I am confident that Leaf will solve the problem whether it is a software or hardware fix. The Aptus is a great product and has huge potential. I just hope that Leaf comes clean and publicly addresses the issue because I fear that this is a serious problem that may damage them significantly and none of us want to see that happen.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 06:44:40 PM by mkravit » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2006, 06:55:13 PM »
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Quote
If I have so presumed erroneously, then I apologise to you, Yair. However, you are speaking on Leaf's behalf, even though it is in your private capacity. The fact that you sign off as you do makes you an official rep, even though you disclaim it. Perhaps you should add a line that you are speaking in your private capacity and do not represent the position of Leaf.

That said, I am not about to launch into you. However, you do know that the majority of those who buy your $30 000.00 backs are professionals whose reputations live and die on their ability to deliver desired results.

Do you expect a professional to live with the problem until you find a solution...if at all? Meanwhile, what is he going to tell his client?

It is my humble estimation that Leaf Israel has taken this problem far far too lightly. You are not making backs for rich hobbyists or doctors, lawyers or dentists. Those who buy your backs are professionals who need them to work. There can be no ifs ands or buts. Either we deliver or we perish.

Since the introduction of the Aptus, something has happened at Leaf. Promised features do not work. Promises on delivery are often missed; 'soon' often means one year or more.

A product like this should never have made it to market. It is, in plain English, defective. Your buyers are not your beta-testers. We have enough to worry about on a commercial campaign without also stressing out over our camera gear without which we won't be called photographers! We have only one chance to look good to our clients. An unwanted Centrefold is not what makes us look good.

Can we count on Leaf any longer?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My signature is there so whoever joins or reads this conversation will know who the person behind the words is.
I am sorry but I feal very uncomfortable discussing such a serious matter with an alias.
If this puts you in an awkward position, please feal free to contact me off-line on my email address above, or directly to our support team with any suggestions/ requests that you may have, in order to convert this discussion into actions and not to leave it as a general attack.

Best

Yair
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mtomalty
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« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2006, 07:40:45 PM »
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In fact, I received a call from a film director friend of mine who tells me that one of the major HDTV cameras is also suffering from the centerfold issue. I don't know if that device uses the Dalsa chip but in my opinion this is a Dalsa problem and Leaf and Sinar are having to deal with it.


Over the past couple of months I've had access to all the 35-39 Mp backs currently
discussed regularly on this forum.

During the course of that testing I came across a situation where one of the NON Dalsa
chipped backs had a fairly pronounced centerfold issue.
It only occurred on a few frames (long exposure with even tone blue sky) and didn't repeat
itself in any other situation that I could determine.

I don't want to post the example yet,or name the brand,until the dealers,who have been very
generous in getting me access,and manufacturer have had a chance to review and respond.

The center split was much less obvious that the A75 example posted,here, earlier today but
present nevertheless so i would urge non-Dalsa back users to keep their eyes peeled for something similar.

In my particular case it occurred on dusk exposures of 12-15 seconds with a dominance
of continuous tone blue sky in the frame which made the line easy to spot.
Used a fixed lens camera (non shifting) with a wide angle lens.

Apologies for seeming evasive but I don't want to be responsible for creating an unneccessary
'internet stampede' if it's determined that what i saw was prompted by something I did
inadveretantly,etc.

Mark
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yaya
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« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2006, 04:40:56 AM »
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Quote
Over the past couple of months I've had access to all the 35-39 Mp backs currently
discussed regularly on this forum.

During the course of that testing I came across a situation where one of the NON Dalsa
chipped backs had a fairly pronounced centerfold issue.
It only occurred on a few frames (long exposure with even tone blue sky) and didn't repeat
itself in any other situation that I could determine.

I don't want to post the example yet,or name the brand,until the dealers,who have been very
generous in getting me access,and manufacturer have had a chance to review and respond.

The center split was much less obvious that the A75 example posted,here, earlier today but
present nevertheless so i would urge non-Dalsa back users to keep their eyes peeled for something similar.

In my particular case it occurred on dusk exposures of 12-15 seconds with a dominance
of continuous tone blue sky in the frame which made the line easy to spot.
Used a fixed lens camera (non shifting) with a wide angle lens.

Apologies for seeming evasive but I don't want to be responsible for creating an unneccessary
'internet stampede' if it's determined that what i saw was prompted by something I did
inadveretantly,etc.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark hi,

If only for the fairness of giving all the manufacturers the same share of grief. May I suggest that once a reasonable period of time has passed without you getting a response from that other manufacturer, you do go ahead and post that sample image.

I think I know what you are talking about and I also know the cause of the problem, but it would be interesting to see if any other rep (under an alias or not) will be willing to take the heat.

Thanks

Yair

PS Steve I'll be happy to show you our (temporary) solution at any time
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mtomalty
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« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2006, 08:37:22 PM »
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If only for the fairness of giving all the manufacturers the same share of grief.

What!  You mean you'd want to share the limelight  
 

Certainly,and for balance,I think it would be fair to post the sample once the neccessary people
have had a chance to review the affected files properly.

Mark
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sundstei
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« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2006, 05:29:53 AM »
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I will add my name to the list of people with the "centerfold" problem. So I guess we are now 16-21 people worldwide

I took delivery of my Aptus 75 for H1 not too long ago, and has already had it show up in a large amount of photos. My rep is currently looking into the problem.
Meanwhile I am keeping my Aptus22.



best regards
Svein Erik Sundsteigen
Ph +47 922 44 976
www.Sundsteigen.com
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izaack
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« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2006, 05:41:43 AM »
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I will add my name to the list of people with the "centerfold" problem. So I guess we are now 16-21 people worldwide

I took delivery of my Aptus 75 for H1 not too long ago, and has already had it show up in a large amount of photos. My rep is currently looking into the problem.
Meanwhile I am keeping my Aptus22.
best regards
Svein Erik Sundsteigen
Ph +47 922 44 976
www.Sundsteigen.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Could we for a change hear from someone who DOESN'T have this problem with his or her Aptus 75?

If this 'centrefold' is a freak occurence, surely there must be many.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 02:51:05 PM by izaack » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2006, 05:53:19 AM »
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Could we for a change hear from someone who DOESN'T have this problem with his or her Aptus 75?

If this 'centrefold' is a freak occurence, there must be many.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree, let's have some reports from people who don't have the issue - we now have it reported on Alpa or similar and on H1 - can someone who use Mamiya report, hopefully that (s)he doesn't see it ? Can people who don't use wides state that they don't see it ? Surely, if people have been using the camera commercially on an everyday basis the effect must be sufficiently restrained, so that in many cases one can say that it is of no practical importance ?

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
mkravit
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« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2006, 09:42:38 AM »
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I will add my name to the list of people with the "centerfold" problem. So I guess we are now 16-21 people worldwide

I took delivery of my Aptus 75 for H1 not too long ago, and has already had it show up in a large amount of photos. My rep is currently looking into the problem.
Meanwhile I am keeping my Aptus22.
best regards
Svein Erik Sundsteigen
Ph +47 922 44 976
www.Sundsteigen.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ah, the "rep is looking into the problem" response.

Well, welcome to the very exclusive club of Aptus 75 users who have fallen victim to this Leaf/Dalsa defective product. Leaf claims that there are only about 15-20 people worldwide sufferingf rom this affliction. I think they have it wrong, there may be a high degree of probability that out of thousands of back sold only 15-20 do not have the problem.

As you can probably gather from the tone of my writing my limit has been reached.

Buyer beware!
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Steve Kerman
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« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2006, 02:47:16 PM »
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I do find it interesting that such a large proportion of those 15-20 people worldwide have posted to this particular thread at this particular website.  
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 02:47:28 PM by Steve Kerman » Logged
rljones
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« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2006, 03:15:17 PM »
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I have no centerfold problem with my Leaf 65. I'ved used it with the following lenses: Digitar 24XL, Mamiya 35, 45, 55, 80, 120macro, 150, and 300. No problems. Exposure times have varied from 2 sec to maybe 1/1000 or so.

Regards,

Robert Jones
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ericstaud
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« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2006, 04:09:11 PM »
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I have had one Aptus 22 and three Aptus 75's.  The 22 had no issues at all.  All three Aptus 75's performed perfectly on an H1 with the 50-110mm zoom and 1 of them I even tested on the H1 with the 35mm lens with no problems.  No color shifts, No centerfold.  The retrofocus world was perfect.

In contrast, the same three Aptus 75's showed centerfold and colorcasts when used with the 24, 35, 47, and 60mm Schneider digitars.

I suspect that the number of circa 15 people having this problem has more to do with the number of people who own or use wide angle Schneider Digitar and Rodenstock HR lenses.  It is not the fact the lenses are wide but that, because of their design, they sit very close to the sensor.

-Eric
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zzzone
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« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2006, 05:14:33 PM »
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Quote
I have no centerfold problem with my Leaf 65. I'ved used it with the following lenses: Digitar 24XL, Mamiya 35, 45, 55, 80, 120macro, 150, and 300. No problems. Exposure times have varied from 2 sec to maybe 1/1000 or so.

Regards,

Robert Jones
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79573\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Robert

I am very interested in your findings.  Perhaps you would be kind enough to tell us if you have used the 24xl with any shift, though I realise there isn't much scope for this with the A65.  I am no expert on lens design but it does appear to me that this centrefold issue is exacerbated when light is focused on the sensor, hitting it at a very oblique angle i.e. with wide angle lenses close to the senor, further exaggerated with shift maybe.

Steve
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rljones
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« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2006, 05:44:39 PM »
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Steve,

I use the Leaf 65 on an Alpa SWA with the 24XL (I believe it is the same set-up as Eric's; I'm still waiting for a 47XL).

There is very little room to shift. Mathematically, I believe the lens can cover and shift 2-3mm on the Leaf 65 (its 2-4mm shorter in each dimension than the Leaf 75), which is about the extent that the baffle about the rear element on the 24XL will allow the lens to move on the SWA when the back is in place. I have not tried shifting this lens, but will try it out and report back.

Robert

_____
Addendum:

I shifted the lens and had no problems with 24XL: no centerfold or CA noted. Images were taken between f8 and f11, and processed with Raw Developer. There was no color cast difference between the images. (As I mentioned on this forum in another thread about hyperfocal length, avoid f5.6 to minimize CA with this lens.)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 10:22:00 PM by rljones » Logged
sundstei
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« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2006, 06:08:42 PM »
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I have just realised that if I shoot high ISO (400 or 800) I get the "centerfold" on every photo, with every lens. Even my 150mm 3.2, where the rays should be hitting the sensor a lot more in line.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 06:09:17 PM by sundstei » Logged
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