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Author Topic: leaf aptus 75 split sensor-colorshift? for Jair..  (Read 21280 times)
zzzone
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« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2006, 06:16:08 PM »
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I have just realised that if I shoot high ISO (400 or 800) I get the "centerfold" on every photo, with every lens. Even my 150mm 3.2, where the rays should be hitting the sensor a lot more in line.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi
I noticed from an earlier reply that you have both the A75 and A22.  The problem you are highlighting here applies just to the 75??  The A75 and the A22 are two of the backs on my shortlist so I am particularly interested.

Regards Steve
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mkravit
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« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2006, 06:16:54 PM »
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I have just realised that if I shoot high ISO (400 or 800) I get the "centerfold" on every photo, with every lens. Even my 150mm 3.2, where the rays should be hitting the sensor a lot more in line.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just a hunch, but if I were a betting man I would bet that the problem with the Leaf/Dalsa product is far more reaching then Leaf would have us all believe.

I believe that there is a method to Hasselblads maddness regarding their stance to provide lens corrections within the back. I think that the current centerfold issues, color fringing and cast issues on the Phase are but only the begining. There will be solutions and fixes, but at the cost of these back the R&D should have been done before the products were released.

I am not an attorney nor an advocate of class action litigation, but I would hate to see some young shark get hold of Leaf, Sinar, and Dalsa on this one, my fear is that it is only a matter of time unless Leaf finds a firmware or hardware fix as soon as possible. These software gain file solutions are kludgy and half baked at best.

Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 06:17:18 PM by mkravit » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2006, 06:30:53 PM »
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I believe that there is a method to Hasselblads maddness regarding their stance to provide lens corrections within the back. I think that the current centerfold issues, color fringing and cast issues on the Phase are but only the begining. There will be solutions and fixes, but at the cost of these back the R&D should have been done before the products were released.

Just my opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You may be right; H presenting lens/back integration as an improvement when in fact it is a necessity.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
mkravit
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« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2006, 07:34:21 PM »
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You may be right; H presenting lens/back integration as an improvement when in fact it is a necessity.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yup, I think that it is inevitable. Leaf and Sinar will undoubtably do the same thing is the Hi'ya6 or AF'oye.

The technology is in it's infancy and will need to mature to solve the issues at hand.
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sundstei
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« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2006, 07:51:32 PM »
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Hi
I noticed from an earlier reply that you have both the A75 and A22.  The problem you are highlighting here applies just to the 75??  The A75 and the A22 are two of the backs on my shortlist so I am particularly interested.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79592\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have not had any such problem on my A22 back shooting with everything from Hassy 905swc to 24mm digitars.

I have to admit I am thinking of maybe "going back" to just the A22. For my work (fashion/commerical) the shooting speed of about 1 frame per 3sek of the A75 is really slow. The A22 shoots as fast as the winder on my old 503cw could pull in c-mode.
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KenRexach
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« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2006, 09:39:30 PM »
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Thanks for the reply! But please... let me say that I find this kind of performance
completely inacceptable for a 30 000.-  Euro technology. I am expecting a fix from Leaf in their Capture software or, maybe, my sensor is particularly bad such that it has to be replaced.
Best, Peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=73133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agree 100%, one shouldnt have to worry about those issues with a $900 dslr MUCH less a $30k back. Its absurd on has to find out about the issue and then figure out a solution when the MFG should have found that stuff out in testing of the unit before even marketing it. I would be furious. I would want my money back and then some.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 09:43:13 PM by KenRexach » Logged
Cfranson
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« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2006, 08:45:56 AM »
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Just a hunch, but if I were a betting man I would bet that the problem with the Leaf/Dalsa product is far more reaching then Leaf would have us all believe.

Indeed it is further reaching than you'd think- the Sinar eMotion 75 has the same problem, so it's clearly a Dalsa issue.
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Fritzer
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« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2006, 04:47:39 PM »
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To sum it up:

- with the Aptus 75 , there is a high likeliness of having the centerfold issue when using non-retrofocus wide angle lenses ( all view camera lenses ), even worse while using shift / tilt, as needed for still life/ architecture photography.

- the software solution offered by Leaf is considered acceptable by some, but alters the file in a possibly undesirable way and requires shooting some white plastic sheet along with the actual shot.

- some users reported they experienced the problem with non wide angle lenses ( 60 mm and longer ) and the Hasselblad H1 .

I assume the Leaf R&D team has been made aware of the issue, and have all sorts of equipment at their disposal for testing.
Even though, there is no official statement by Leaf which addresses the problem...

I was really close to getting the Aptus 75, but now my local Leaf rep will have to deal with a tough customer regarding warranty and replacement.
Judging by the posts I've read, you guys affected must have the patient of a saint, waiting for weeks for a replacement or repair.
As a professional, I expect a free loaner or replacement back within a day, 2 days tops.
If Leaf can't provide that, they can not be considered a viable partner for pros.

Best,
Tom
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ericstaud
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« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2006, 07:40:31 PM »
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Hi Tom,

Just regarding summing it up....
The white plastic sheet is called a "Gain Diffuser" by Leaf.  It is a tranlucent white plexi disc about 3" round which is placed over the lens.  It's function is nearly identical to the white 6" x 8" plexi that Phase One provides.  The Phase One LCC feature uses the image of the white plexi to remove the color casts that can occur with shifts, tilts, and wide angle non-retrofocus lenses.  The eMotion backs come supplied with a similar plexi card for the same purpose.

With the Kodak chip the irregularities are in the form of color shifts.  With Dalsa Chips there are both Color shifts and on some A75's and Emotion 75's the now famous "Centerfold" line.

The distressed Aptus users bought Aptus 75's being told by reps and dealers months ago that we would be free of a workflow requiring the photography of special plexi diffusers and the use of special steps in processing.  Shooting with the Aptus 22 was a dream.  Just shoot the picture and process it.  No color shifts, no centerfold.  The Aptus 75 was supposed to be the same, just more pixels.  We are dissapointed.  Leaf is working to help us... but ....

Physics being what they are in state of the art sensor design, Kodak and Dalsa are doing the best they can.  You cannot escape these issues by buying a Phase One, Imacon, or a Sinar MFDB.

You should know that with the eMotion and Aptus backs that the software solution creates a new file which has been corrected.  This means you can move forward and process your files in ACR or RAW developer.  This is not true of Phase one.  As long as their LCC is written as a set of processing instructions then you will spend the rest of your life with RAW files which must be processed in special Phase One  software.

I also have experience using the "Pattern Noise Redution" in C1 pro.  It does a good of removing the pattern noise that can occur with wide digitars and Phase One backs, but it steals away detail as well.

The Leaf and eMotion solutions also provide an easy abitliy to eliminate Lens Fall-off utilizing the calibration shot you've made to eliminate the Centerfold and colorcast.  Phase one does not.

If you can spend some time doing demos with the backs, that is best.  If you are comfortable enough, then rent the backs for several jobs.  There are also good dealers who will spend hours with you at their stores showing you the workflow of the different systems.  This way you would not have to spend soo much time installing and poking around the software the night before a big shoot.

It is more difficult with the wide digitars, Cambos, and Alpas because most reps and dealers are more prepared to show you the MFDB's on H1's with retrofocus lenses.  The experience of using these backs that way is very different.

-Eric S
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 02:21:44 AM by ericstaud » Logged
Fritzer
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« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2006, 09:13:39 PM »
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Thanks for the information, Eric,

I will certainly do some extensive testing with the Aptus backs before I purchase one.
Fortunately, my local Leaf rep in Hamburg has been very helpful and forthcoming in the past.

As a still life photographer, I do 2-3 shots a day, so I can live with a less than perfect workflow, but not with a damaged file out of the camera wich needs to be corrected.
Imagine a lab sends your 4x5 sheets back cut in half, with a download link for stitching software...  .

Best,
Tom
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yaya
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« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2006, 01:29:01 AM »
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I assume the Leaf R&D team has been made aware of the issue, and have all sorts of equipment at their disposal for testing.
Even though, there is no official statement by Leaf which addresses the problem...
Best,
Tom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79850\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tom hi, I must be using some kind of invisible ink...since I've responded several times on this forum in various threads on this subject<_<

But anyway, thanks to Eric you now have a more complete answer and I'm sure they guys at Calumet will be able to show you the ins and outs of the solution.

Best

Yair
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pixjohn
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« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2006, 01:45:59 AM »
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With my personal experience, Calumet does not even know how to turn the digital back on.

Basically they are clueless.
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yaya
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« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2006, 02:04:06 AM »
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With my personal experience, Calumet does not even know how to turn the digital back on.

Basically they are clueless.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

John we are talking Europe here   The guy in Hamburg knows his stuff...
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ericstaud
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« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2006, 02:10:40 AM »
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Hi Yair,

Can you ship some of the guys form Hamburg to Los Angeles?  We could use them out here.  I understand where John is coming from (because I am here).

-Eric
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Fritzer
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« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2006, 01:39:42 PM »
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Tom hi, I must be using some kind of invisible ink...since I've responded several times on this forum in various threads on this subject<_<

But anyway, thanks to Eric you now have a more complete answer and I'm sure they guys at Calumet will be able to show you the ins and outs of the solution.

Best

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yair,
You got that wrong, sorry if I didn't express myself properly, 'official' was referring to a clear statement by Leaf, the company, on the issue with a listing of possibly affected configurations.
Like many others, I much appreciate your input and assistance in all things Leaf on a public forum, keep up the good work !

Brown-nosing aside   , I'll get in touch with Calumet Hamburg as soon as I'm back in Germany and report my findings.

Best,
Tom
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Fritzer
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« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2006, 01:44:02 PM »
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John we are talking Europe here   The guy in Hamburg knows his stuff...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79909\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That was my impression, too, and he won't bullshit you.


Quote
Hi Yair,

Can you ship some of the guys form Hamburg to Los Angeles?
-Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79911\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not gonna happen, you go find your own skilled reps !
 
Tom
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yaya
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« Reply #76 on: October 11, 2006, 03:01:24 PM »
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Yair,
You got that wrong, sorry if I didn't express myself properly, 'official' was referring to a clear statement by Leaf, the company, on the issue with a listing of possibly affected configurations.
Like many others, I much appreciate your input and assistance in all things Leaf on a public forum, keep up the good work !

Brown-nosing aside   , I'll get in touch with Calumet Hamburg as soon as I'm back in Germany and report my findings.

Best,
Tom
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79972\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No problem, thanks to the many posts here and on our users forum, we are preparing a ducument that will be made public that covers the various issues with modern sensors and wide-angle LF lenses and current technology overview.
It will also cover the current solutions/ remedies and will be ready in a few days time, along with the requested statement from the company.

Yair
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pixjohn
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« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2006, 09:41:21 AM »
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mkravit, my understanding from the Leaf forum that you are going to return your Aptus 75?

EricStaud, Your comments also on the Leaf forum regarding preproduction backs and testing are right on. I also based my purchase on the test I shot with the Aptus 75 and the article about shooting architectural photography with the leaf back.

http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/user...rdonBarHama.pdf
http://www.digitar.alpavision.ch/
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Fritzer
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« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2006, 03:31:56 PM »
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No problem, thanks to the many posts here and on our users forum, we are preparing a ducument that will be made public that covers the various issues with modern sensors and wide-angle LF lenses and current technology overview.
It will also cover the current solutions/ remedies and will be ready in a few days time, along with the requested statement from the company.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79984\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks Yair,
That's good news !

Best,
Tom
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mkravit
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« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2006, 09:34:32 PM »
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I posted the following on the Leaf User forum this evening.....

"Today I received a telephone call from Leaf in Israel. I was asked to allow Leaf to send me a replacement back with a new Dalsa Chip that is said to be tested and free of the centerfold issue. It was difficult to make the decision to leave Leaf as I really believe their product is the best for architectural photography and has the nicest look of any back I have tested.

I was so impressed by the personal committment of Leaf and their personnel that I felt it would be unfair to not allow this company another shot. I am no one in the scheme of things, but Leaf has made me feel like someone special. I sincerely hope that the new chip and back perform as promised, you have made a friend and a customer for a long, log time. I would ask that as difficult as it may be, to find a methodology whereby Leaf can keep their customer base informed of issues, problems and efforts to resolve the problems. It is the lack of communication that festers in ones soul and creates dissatisfaction.

Thank you for your efforts and I look forward to many fine images down the road. "

Warmest regards,

Michael
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