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Author Topic: Eizo monitors are they worth it?  (Read 14525 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2006, 12:07:09 PM »
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Nill, I think that advice was particularly important for CRT monitors which have the potential for much greater drift compared with LCDs. I believe for good quality LCDs it is not harmful to allow much longer intervals.
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LCD's are as subject to drift (some would say more) than CRTs.

Better software products provide a tranding graph which will update all calibration sessions and give you a delta of changes over time. That's useful to provide real world feedback as to how your individual display may be changing over time.
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Andrew Rodney
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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2006, 12:21:28 PM »
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Wonderful avatar, Andrew!  ;-)

Nill
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2006, 12:33:29 PM »
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LCD's are as subject to drift (some would say more) than CRTs.

Better software products provide a tranding graph which will update all calibration sessions and give you a delta of changes over time. That's useful to provide real world feedback as to how your individual display may be changing over time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74115\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew, where did you get that info on the drift from - I'm interested because stuff I've read in the past suggests CCFLs are more stable.

ColorEyes Display does provide this tracking capability. I only got this monitor back in June, so I shall be building a track record for it. That could be interesting.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2006, 12:39:48 PM »
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Andrew, where did you get that info on the drift from - I'm interested because stuff I've read in the past suggests CCFLs are more stable.
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Mostly from my own (few) LCDs. To be honest, they are NOT high end since I'm not a big LCD fan. But I do calibrate and profile my Powerbook laptop and my iMac. And there's a pretty significant difference in panel quality from low to high end. I like the trending part of the software because it does give me some idea how often I need to calibrate and profile. I try to do this once a month.
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Andrew Rodney
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englishm
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« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2006, 01:16:03 PM »
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Andrew,

If you will forgive the thread drift, what calibration package would you recommend?

I am using an older colorvision spyder and PhotoCal which is incapable of calibrating LCDs, but has worked reasonably well with my Eizo CRT.

Since I will shortly be faced with the move to an LCD, I will also have to upgrade my calibration package as well.  I'd also like to calibrate my "field" laptop.

I used to hear really positve comments on the Gretag EyeOne Display, but now it seems the Monaco X-Rite Pro is the one to have.

Thanks
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digitaldog
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2006, 01:18:32 PM »
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Andrew,

If you will forgive the thread drift, what calibration package would you recommend?

Thanks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

EyeOne Match from GretagMacbeth (oh, I mean X-Rite). I like their software (newest version) best. The OPTIX hardware wise has a technological edge over the EyeOne Display but in the real world, I don't know anyone would really see the difference.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2006, 01:42:33 PM »
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Thanks!
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tived
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2006, 07:41:35 PM »
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Wonderful avatar, Andrew!  ;-)

Nill
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  Nill, clearly you haven't look at Andrews book lately    nice frontcover , you better visit your local bookshop and pick up a copy

:-) sorry i couldn't help myself :-)

Henrik
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tived
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2006, 07:46:30 PM »
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Andrew, where did you get that info on the drift from - I'm interested because stuff I've read in the past suggests CCFLs are more stable.

ColorEyes Display does provide this tracking capability. I only got this monitor back in June, so I shall be building a track record for it. That could be interesting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74117\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Mark,

I was a bit surprised to read what your comment about calibrating and what sounded like a not so frequent event.
I guess, that we don't really know, but to be on the safe side we just do it, and sometimes even on a daily basis, just incase! You don't want to sit and do a whole days work and then get a call from the printer/client telling you, that the colors has slipped off the page ;-)

however, I could be wrong, and if so please correct

Henrik
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« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2006, 07:51:45 PM »
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Softproofing on screen!

I been reading the advertising material on Eizo and came across this part where is gives you the ability to directly softproof on screen bypassing the photoshop color engine, can anyone elabroate on this a bit more.

further, the eizo software gives you the ability to emulate other monitors by using their ICC profile, to ensure colors are matching across multiple monitor systems, that sounds very interesting, but how often will we use it, and does it work as advertised?

hmm, so many questions.....thanks guys for taking the time to help fill in the blanks

regards

Henrik
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2006, 09:27:33 PM »
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Hi Mark,

I was a bit surprised to read what your comment about calibrating and what sounded like a not so frequent event.
I guess, that we don't really know, but to be on the safe side we just do it, and sometimes even on a daily basis, just incase! You don't want to sit and do a whole days work and then get a call from the printer/client telling you, that the colors has slipped off the page ;-)

however, I could be wrong, and if so please correct

Henrik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Henrik, for someone in a professional environment needing to please clients with exacting standards of course there is never harm in doing something as simple as re-calibrating frequently. I guess it all depends on how exacting one needs to be, and what kind of equipment is at play.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Barry Prager
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2006, 10:30:51 PM »
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Gentle readers:

After reading this thread, it sounds like a bunch of scientists talking about designing a suitcase bomb or something.  The image is everything, and then there are sooo many variables, but the monitor is not a make or break deal.  I personally like CRT screens, but I admit I have not looked at the latest and greatest LCD offering, other than a friends Mac.  I sure hope my Sony hangs in there a while longer.  Tivid, keep the Dells and go forth and multiply.  Your putting the cart before the horse.  Sell some pictures and make some money.  If the shadows look a little blocked up after you make a test print, adjust it in Photoshop.  Nobody cares, I repeat, nobody cares other than us dweebs what kind of monitor was used.  I've been selling photos off and on for 35 years and people have asked me a lot of questions, but what kind of monitor did I use was not one of them.  Hell, they don't even care what kind of Printer I use.  That hurts.  If a sixteen bit monitor ( $$$$$$) and all that assorted hardware gives you the ability to dial in your Cyan 1% better, only you are going to care, and if it's sitting in an unsold pile, even you won't.  Now, if I can only rationalize how I'm going to get that Nikon 17-55 2.8 zoom.  

Honeybadger.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2006, 10:47:05 PM »
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Gentle readers:

After reading this thread, it sounds like a bunch of scientists talking about designing a suitcase bomb or something.  The image is everything, and then there are sooo many variables, but the monitor is not a make or break deal. 

Honeybadger.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74164\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Barry, this kind of put-down is uncalled-for. People engaging in this discussion are trying to get a sense of the trade-off between spending and work-flow efficiency, as well as what gives the best value for money. If you have a well-functioning, photo-quality CRT you are blessed and be grateful. When you join the rest of us who need to buy an LCD to replace it, you will start finding such discussions very relevant to your own predicament - I'll bet-ya!
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2006, 12:37:27 AM »
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Quote from: Barry Prager,Aug 23 2006, 03:30 AM
Gentle readers:

After reading this thread, it sounds like a bunch of scientists talking about designing a suitcase bomb or something.  The image is everything, and then there are sooo many variables, but the monitor is not a make or break deal.  I personally like CRT screens, but I admit I have not looked at the latest and greatest LCD offering, other than a friends Mac.  I sure hope my Sony hangs in there a while longer.  Tivid, keep the Dells and go forth and multiply.  Your putting the cart before the horse.  Sell some pictures and make some money.  If the shadows look a little blocked up after you make a test print, adjust it in Photoshop.  Nobody cares, I repeat, nobody cares other than us dweebs what kind of monitor was used.  I've been selling photos off and on for 35 years and people have asked me a lot of questions, but what kind of monitor did I use was not one of them.  Hell, they don't even care what kind of Printer I use.  That hurts.  If a sixteen bit monitor ( $$$$$$) and all that assorted hardware gives you the ability to dial in your Cyan 1% better, only you are going to care, and if it's sitting in an unsold pile, even you won't.  Now, if I can only rationalize how I'm going to get that Nikon 17-55 2.8 zoom.  

point taken barry ;-)

but i/we don't just work on our own images, but other pro's images. I was a very different story when it was just my own stuff, the Dells would be just fine.

No personally I don't really care what it says on the badge of the screeen or if I am using a Mac or PC, what is important is the, as you pointed out is the image, but since it isn't alway my image and someone is paying me/us to do a good job, so they can continue shooting and leave the post processing to us and trust that it is done as good as we can, then I think that it is important for us to eliminate any pitfalls and partly doing that my educating ourselves and maintain good and high standard equipment.
When puttings things in perspective, then the screen is one or two weeks of full time paid work (at peak time)!
however, if there are pitfalls also by getting such screens, like the data path is not fully supported from the graphics card or software used then, it becomes pointless regardless of cost and or brand name ;-)

yes, the image is important and us youngsters can learn alot from you guys who have been around for some time, so I thank you for your input

Henrik
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2006, 12:43:47 AM »
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Barry, this kind of put-down is uncalled-for. People engaging in this discussion are trying to get a sense of the trade-off between spending and work-flow efficiency, as well as what gives the best value for money. If you have a well-functioning, photo-quality CRT you are blessed and be grateful. When you join the rest of us who need to buy an LCD to replace it, you will start finding such discussions very relevant to your own predicament - I'll bet-ya!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=74166\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks Mark,

:-)

it is truely frustrating, and we do waste a lot of time trying to sort out some of these technical difficutlies.

with the Dells 2405, I sometimes have to move from side to side to see if I have missed things in the shadows, and the screen does seem to block up in the shadows.

if it was just the monitor one had to worry about then it would be all fine but there is so many other aspects to all this - which also makes it extreemely interesting cos you learn so much while trying to solve all these issues ;-) I hope!

thanks

Henrik
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Barry Prager
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2006, 01:34:13 AM »
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Lighten up Dude.

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Barry, this kind of put-down is uncalled-for. People engaging in this discussion are trying to get a sense of the trade-off between spending and work-flow efficiency, as well as what gives the best value for money. If you have a well-functioning, photo-quality CRT you are blessed and be grateful. When you join the rest of us who need to buy an LCD to replace it, you will start finding such discussions very relevant to your own predicament - I'll bet-ya!
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2006, 07:22:08 AM »
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Lighten up Dude.
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This discussion forum is about substance, not personal attacks. If you wish to continue posting to this Forum I would advise that you not come to the attention of the moderators as someone who attacks other members.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2006, 07:45:11 PM »
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Mark, monitor calibration is not a "set it and forget it" process anyway — typical recommendation is to redo it every two weeks or so.


Nill
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Nill, Mark,

I just installed the SpectraView II software for my 2190uxi (Mark, as you are probably aware, your Lacie 321 is Lacie's version of the NEC 2180uxi.. and they are now coming out with the 12 bit LUT version which is a 2190uxi, so we all have essentially the same display).  Anyway, sounds like you guys have some experience with the Spectraview software.  I just did my first calibration a couple of hours ago, but was confused as to which "target" model to use ("L" D65 ??) or whether I should create my own (6500, 2.2 gamma).  I was a little concerned that the preset targets have "intensity" set to "maximum possible".  I was concerned that the screen would be too bright.  Do you create your own targets ?  What settings did you use ?  

Any help or tips appreciated.

Tony
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Tony Bonanno Photography
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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2006, 09:09:11 PM »
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Nill, Mark,

I just did my first calibration a couple of hours ago, but was confused as to which "target" model to use ("L" D65 ??) or whether I should create my own (6500, 2.2 gamma).  I was a little concerned that the preset targets have "intensity" set to "maximum possible".  I was concerned that the screen would be too bright.  Do you create your own targets ?  What settings did you use ? 

Any help or tips appreciated.

Tony
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Tony, there is a nest of questions here. Firstly, I use ColorEyes Display (Integrated Color Corporation) software with an Monaco Optix XR. This software along with the video card andmonitor are all DDC enabled, so there is not much I need to set. To the extent your package works similarly to mine, the following may be useful. No guarantees!

The procedure I'm using, following the advice of Integrated Color Corp, is to first reset the monitor to its default values using the reset control on the monitor front panel. I assume your monitor has this too. The software takes care of resetting the video card before it does anything else - the user does not see this.

ColorEyes Display with DDC only requires the user to give it three parameters: white point, gamma and luminance. For white point the recommendation is to use 6500 degrees K, because this setting corresponds best with how prints view under Solux D50 illumination (don't ask me why, but it's true!).

(Diversion: you should have a D50 source of illumination in your work area for viewing the prints - either a lamp or a fixture. This is obtainable from www.solux.net, the website of Tailored Lighting in Rochester New York - there may be other suppliers - I use them and they are good.)

For gamma, they recommend and I use their L* setting, but if your package doesn't have that, use 2.2.

For luminance - and this is the trickiest part - don't use a setting such as "maximum" if your software offers you that. It is too bright for the LCDs and papers we are normally using (especially if matte or other such Fine Art papers). I set mine to 110 cd/M2. This will make the screen look rather dull, but that may be exactly what you want - unless you find your prints are coming out consistently brighter than what you see on the screen (means this setting is making you over-compensate brightness in Photoshop). Then you will want to re-calibrate using a higher value of cd/M2, which would induce you to do less brigtening of the image in Photoshop.  I found the key thing in using an LCD successfully was not the color calibration/profiling, which these packages and monitors manage well, but getting the brightness tamed to match the printer. This is where playing with the luminance setting until you have confidence in the predictability of the result could be required. It took me several iterations (which just means redoing the profile at different luminance values and testing the results with prints). While it takes some time, the psychic advantage of it is that you get to use your profiling package repeatedly, which almost makes it seem as if the expenditure was worthwhile!  

Good luck with it.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2006, 09:09:34 PM »
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Tony, you need to create your own.  Mine is D65, 2.2, 100cd/m˛.  You might want to play with some of the other default settings also, e.g., I have checked "Average low light measurements," changed Calibration and Profile steps to 52, and set OSD controls to Lock All.  The first two, at least from the way I read the manual, should produce slightly better results at the expense of slightly longer calibration times.  The last just disables the front panel buttons so that hitting one doesn't change a setting inadvertently.

Speaking of OSD controls, note also that ColorComp is turned off by default, and you have to enable it using those controls (which means, of course that you have to unlock them if you locked them...).

BTW, at the suggestion of someone somewhere, maybe here, I had one of those Doh! moments and realized that you can really make calibration easier on yourself by tilting the display back so that the puck rests happily and securely on the screen surface.

Nill
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