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Author Topic: MR's Aptus Vs Phase musings  (Read 65565 times)
Ed Jack
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« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2006, 09:41:23 AM »
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The Mamiya ZD is the latest example of this and even though there is now another review of the ZD on this website, other than show a few images it really tells us nothing about frame rates, buffer, speed to process jpeg and tiffs, lcd use, white balance from daylight, tungsten, mixed light, strobe and service, tech support, user installed firmware updates, etc. etc.


JR

http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/lg2/
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  Does anyone know what's happened to the stand-alone ZD back that was designed along side the ZD - presumably it was designed as the test bed for the chip and other electronics even before the packaged all-in-one ZD was developed ?

Why not release this soon if the engineering is already done - if that is the case.

Why not even release the ZD back in 645 mounts for all manufacterers - we think they can make more money this way, than protecting the Mamiya brand - even taking into account the Mamiya protected lens sales ?

I Hope the ZD is a sucess as everyone else does (apart from direct competators of course). If mamiya can make decent margins, then I hope they are ambitious enough for a ZDII and soon, with at the very least a better LCD and maybe improved electronics (cleaned up high iso and maybe 16bit if it is shown to help AND a faster bigger memory buffer). Obviously the most pertinent upgrade would be the 33MP Dalsa sensor, which could be integrated at just the additional cost between the two sensors (not as much as you would think) - as long as the support electronic could keep up. Can these elctronics be simply scalled up for the bigger (33MP) chip, or used in parrallel ? I don't know as I'm not an engineer, but come Feb 2007, when the new Canon comes out at 20-24MP, then the ZD again has to evolve to be seen as having advantages.

  Ed
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 09:42:37 AM by Ed Jack » Logged
narikin
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« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2006, 11:15:14 AM »
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Obviously the most pertinent upgrade would be the 33MP Dalsa sensor, which could be integrated at just the additional cost between the two sensors (not as much as you would think) - as long as the support electronic could keep up.
  Ed
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agreed. thought the exact same thing myself.
Mamiya need the 33mp ZDII, and it could be an excellent product.

this is just the sort of camera I would like to use and own, but it really must jump up a sensor if its to succeed.
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narikin
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« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2006, 11:29:11 AM »
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Yair is the only manufacturer's rep that comes on any of these forums AND takes and answers the hard questions, rather than just introduce new product and go back into hiding.
unfair.

Phase One has an excellent user forum and answer database with people responding to questions online every day in both Europe and USA. Leaf could learn a lot from Phase about customer support, upgrade paths, software etc. (where is Leafs user forum? or their solution for Windows users?)

Leaf comes to this forum, because there isnt a proper forum for Leaf users.
Phase have one set up, and it works well, so dont need their users to go to a third party site to get answers...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2006, 11:31:02 AM by narikin » Logged
Jack Varney
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« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2006, 11:38:30 AM »
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Quote from: narikin,Aug 31 2006, 04:29 PM
Phase One has an excellent user forum and answer database with people responding to questions online every day in both Europe and USA. Leaf could learn a lot from Phase about customer support, upgrade paths, software etc. (where is Leafs user forum? or their solution for Windows users?)

I agree, Phase has been very responsove to my questions and suggestions. Their agents have been great in support, also. Can't say about Leaf because I have no experience with them.
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2006, 11:48:37 AM »
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as nice as it is to have officials contribute in public discussion as it is the case with leaf (and i can tell from my own experience that there is good support with leaf, thanks again rick...), it does not really compare to phase...phase has a very professional, working forum that they run and obviously contribute to ontop of their online and phone support....but they real problem with leaf is their promises about software releases and updates...i had a leaf back for 2 years and the entire time was filled with unkept promises...i am not saying that i did not have something to work with, but it was frustrating to work with something that was about 2 years behind other products and being told every month that the new and much better version is coming next week....that is just bad support...
and like james keeps saying: software and workflow are at least as important as the hardware itself when it comes to making a desicion about MF backs..especially when the actual hardware is so similar...
i am not bashing leaf here and i will say again that the software was workable...it was more the feeling of having the carrot dangling infront of my nose at all times and not really wanting to commit to a consistent workflow, because it might change "next week" when the new "wondersoftware" is released....
how long have they promised a windows version? a hint: just don't make promises, don't say anything and surprise everybody by releasing it!
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yaya
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« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2006, 01:17:53 PM »
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Leaf users, you are all welcome to join the users forum:

http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/forum/

It is only 2 months old but there's already a fair bit of info being shared and there's about 6 of us monitoring it regularily and responding as required.

It may well be opened to the public in the future, once it gathers momentum and is fully featured/ functional.

PC users are also welcome to join the beta programme for the Windows version of Leaf Capture 10.

Yair

PS personally I think there are still advantages in sharing information via a 3rd party forum where there is no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses. all IMHO.
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Jae_Moon
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« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2006, 02:10:04 PM »
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PS personally I think there are still advantages in sharing information via a 3rd party forum where there is no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses. all IMHO.
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I don't think you would say 'no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses' if you have bothered to check 'Phase One Official User to User Forum'. Most exchanges in Phase One Forum are between the real users with real, not hypothetical, issues about Phase One products. Site Administrator jumps in once in a while with 'official' anwers.

There are 999 toics with 3752 posts on Capture One Windows, 789 topics with 3142 posts on Capture One Mac, 358 topics with 1576 posts on P series back, for example.
[a href=\"http://forum.phaseone.com/index.php]http://forum.phaseone.com/index.php[/url]

Also, you can crate a customer support case directly with Phase One on-line.
http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Support.aspx

I don't have any opinions about other manufacturers since I don't have sufficient information on them neither positively nor negatively.

Jae Moon
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James Russell
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« Reply #67 on: August 31, 2006, 02:12:23 PM »
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unfair.

Phase One has an excellent user forum and answer database with people responding to questions online every day in both Europe and USA. Leaf could learn a lot from Phase about customer support, upgrade paths, software etc. (where is Leafs user forum? or their solution for Windows users?)

Leaf comes to this forum, because there isnt a proper forum for Leaf users.
Phase have one set up, and it works well, so dont need their users to go to a third party site to get answers...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75058\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I don't belive it's unfair, I just believe it's a fact that only Yair comes on these forums and really takes it on the chin.  I respect that.

Yes Phase has a forum, I've been on prior to deciding to go with Leaf and noticed some of the questions were answered quickly and some were not.

Phase makes a good product, excellent software, but is not known for their great corporate response time and they know this and I understand they are making an effort to improve.

In all fairness, Leaf's forum should also be opened up to the public and I belive it will.

Also is all fairness Leaf does need to get better on software development, or IMO send it out to a third party that specializes in it.

I do think these public forums develope questions, debate and thought that are of a different nature than the private or semi-private manufacturer's forum.   Those forums tend to be specific in nature, rather than how we produce our art and what we need to accomplish that.

I am the very first to admit I am fond of Leaf.  From the start Yair and Rick have been nothing but honest and amazingly helpful to me with the Aptus and the fact that Yair takes difficult questions is good for all of us, regardless of the camera you use.

IMO



JR
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pss
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« Reply #68 on: August 31, 2006, 02:29:01 PM »
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yair and rick are great and very fast to respond...but they only have a fraction of the people to deal with...phase sells more backs (i believe) and they are also dealing with a lot more peolpe who bought C1 pro and le... i have had all my questions answered within a day/24hours and that is good enough for me...
this discussion seems to be going the same way the discussions about the backs themselves usually go...just like the backs, the support systems work in different ways, but there no reason to fear being stranded either way...
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yaya
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« Reply #69 on: August 31, 2006, 02:34:14 PM »
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I don't think you would say 'no "corporate blanket" over the carefully crafted responses' if you have bothered to check 'Phase One Official User to User Forum'.

I have (bothered...), ever since it was created.
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Jae_Moon
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« Reply #70 on: August 31, 2006, 03:01:36 PM »
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I have (bothered...), ever since it was created.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And you still consider 'corporate blanket over the carefully crafted responses' a proper description of the Phase One Forum?
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pss
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« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2006, 03:08:20 PM »
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nothing says corporate blanket like closed to the non leaf user public....
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yaya
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« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2006, 03:12:31 PM »
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And you still consider 'corporate blanket over the carefully crafted responses' a proper description of the Phase One Forum?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The forum is great, the responses aren't so great. Sorry if I was misunderstood.
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pss
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« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2006, 03:39:45 PM »
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The forum is great, the responses aren't so great. Sorry if I was misunderstood.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
a forum is as good as the responses it collects...the phase forum provides tech support by phase employees and help from other phase owners, most of which know what they are talking about...
i don't understand why we have to "defend" an excellent support forum here...so this is one of leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum: badmouth the phase forum?...great!


BTW: asked a question about the new sandisk cards on the phase forum today, got a detailed and satisfying answer from tech support 55min. later...not bad at all
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yaya
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« Reply #74 on: August 31, 2006, 03:49:46 PM »
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a forum is as good as the responses it collects...the phase forum provides tech support by phase employees and help from other phase owners, most of which know what they are talking about...
i don't understand why we have to "defend" an excellent support forum here...so this is one of leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum: badmouth the phase forum?...great!
BTW: asked a question about the new sandisk cards on the phase forum today, got a detailed and satisfying answer from tech support 55min. later...not bad at all
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75110\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My initial post was inviting Leaf users to join the Leaf forum following a query about it, that was it.

Most of my posts on this forum are based on my personal experience and opinions and by no means reflect "leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum" (I'm not technical support).

And no, you do not need to defend Phase's forum since no one was attacking it.

BR

Yair
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eronald
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« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2006, 06:55:47 PM »
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My initial post was inviting Leaf users to join the Leaf forum following a query about it, that was it.

Most of my posts on this forum are based on my personal experience and opinions and by no means reflect "leaf's tech support's contributions to an open forum" (I'm not technical support).

And no, you do not need to defend Phase's forum since no one was attacking it.

BR

Yair
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Children , children ...

Can we go back to bashing the products rather than bashing each other  ?

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 01, 2006, 01:48:23 AM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #76 on: September 01, 2006, 05:14:31 AM »
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Leaf users, you are all welcome to join the users forum:

http://www.leaf-photography.com/pages/forum/

It is only 2 months old but there's already a fair bit of info being shared and there's about 6 of us monitoring it regularily and responding as required.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75080\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


With the little information that can be found online on DBs, I think it's unfortunate for interested future customers to make a product forum not even viewable by the public.

Best,
Thomas
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yaya
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« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2006, 11:47:56 PM »
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With the little information that can be found online on DBs, I think it's unfortunate for interested future customers to make a product forum not even viewable by the public.

Best,
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As I mentioned before, the forum is only 2 months old and is still going through some development.

Once we hare happy with its state, we'll look into making it public.

Hope this helps, yair
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pprdigital
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« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2006, 08:53:57 AM »
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With the little information that can be found online on DBs, I think it's unfortunate for interested future customers to make a product forum not even viewable by the public.

Best,
Thomas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, I think it would be nice to have forums public. I don't know if the Phase forum started out that way from the very beginning. Yair makes a good point that they're just getting started with this, so let's give them some time to sort it out, and see where they end up.

I think it's also important to be aware that while a user forum is a good place to get information, it also tends to be a place where people go for help or with complaints. It can be used as a gauge to see how the company responds, but it can also be a platform for very public agendas.

And after reading a company-based, product-based forum, you may have the idea that the product is nothing but trouble. This is rarely the case. Users have a tendency to not dial into forums and rave about how wonderful their digital back is.

It's more often...

HELP! Green light won't come on! Middle of shoot! Any suggestions!?

It can lead one to the conclusion - gosh, these guys sure do have lots of problems. Which isn't the case. The vast majority of digital back users - regardless of brand - are quite happy with their choice.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Steve Hendrix
James Russell
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« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2006, 10:46:17 AM »
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Well, I think it would be nice to have forums public. I don't know if the Phase forum started out that way from the very beginning. Yair makes a good point that they're just getting started with this, so let's give them some time to sort it out, and see where they end up.

I think it's also important to be aware that while a user forum is a good place to get information, it also tends to be a place where people go for help or with complaints. It can be used as a gauge to see how the company responds, but it can also be a platform for very public agendas.

And after reading a company-based, product-based forum, you may have the idea that the product is nothing but trouble. This is rarely the case. Users have a tendency to not dial into forums and rave about how wonderful their digital back is.

It's more often...

HELP! Green light won't come on! Middle of shoot! Any suggestions!?

It can lead one to the conclusion - gosh, these guys sure do have lots of problems. Which isn't the case. The vast majority of digital back users - regardless of brand - are quite happy with their choice.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=75365\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have mixed feelings about all of these forums, public or private.

One one side, some photographer that doesn't do his homework makes a user error then starts screaming the product is crap is somewhat unfair.

On the flip slde all of these companies, Canon, Nikon included have released product that is not really ready for use and it almost seems they use thier customer base as beta testers.

When those posts become public, in my view the manufacturer's deserve the reviews.

The one thing I've noticed that pertains to the use of digital backs is everyone that has not tried one for an extended period of time believes they are almost impossible to work.

Time and again I receive e-mails from someone that says, "wow I just tried the _______back mounted on a _______ and how easy it is to shoot.  I thought from reading on the forums it would be much more difficult".

Some of this can be put on the makers of the backs because they do make it difficult to get information.  The PDF's can be confusing and certain topics that like Moire, or CA seem to be bypassed in any forum disucssion.

Some of this can also be put on the reviewer's because like that recent article about the mamiya ZD, there is no mention of buffer speed, lcd clairty/color correctness, write times, and very little infomation about post production.

It seems all any reviewer wants to do is just shoot each back side by side at different iso's and post the results.  I know in my own personal testing these cameras can be so scene specific what is really needed is a broad based review that starts with setup, file naming, tethering, portable, lcd clairty, shoot speed, right times, high to low iso, noise reduction, software options, post production times, jpeg creations all the way to final file delivery.

Do the work well with tungsten, mixed, or daylight and how accurate are the standard white balances?

Personally I think the digital backs are a good investment as they are the closest thing to a medium format, even large format film look, that is available in the digital world and regardless of the constant pixel peeping comparisions between brands and formats, the lenses and aspect ratios do make a great deal of difference in crafting a certain look.

I chose the Leaf for a few very important  reasons and none of them were ever mentioned by the manufacturer, or in any test I saw online or in print.

Lately everyone seems to be waiting for announcements from Photokina to decide if they will stick with their dslrs or move to medium format.  I find this interesting because even if a dslr was introduced tomorrow at 40 mega pixels it would not change the lens options, file depth and the aspect ratio.

To me those are much more important values than detail.

JR
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