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Author Topic: MR's Aptus Vs Phase musings  (Read 64727 times)
Ed Jack
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« on: August 22, 2006, 07:35:10 AM »
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It was nice to get a common sense approach to these two backs and the initial "brand bashing" of the owners of previous generation backs from these companies seems to be long dead (it did happen on this site and others) - which is good.

It has to also be said that the P45 has been shown to be acceptable up to about 30 minute exposures - an order of magnitude better than any previous Phase one back, or any other back on the market. So for some photographer, this upper exposure limit - which I believe is more like 20-30 seconds on the Aptus 75 is a major consideration too - in this instance Michael did not mention this pint. As a landscape photographer I can think of many occasions where my exposures exceed 20 seconds, which might discount even the best Dalsa chipped device from my purchasing decisions (are these chips inherently worse at long exposures) ?

Furthermore Hasselblads "blanking" of Michael’s offer to review a sample is pure stupidity when he is regarded as the pre-eminent figure for doing this on the web or otherwise. We all just assume that they  (Hassie) are afraid of being "shown up" by what Phase one can achieve with ostensibly the same chip ?

Maybe the new eMotion deivce is worth a look too - most people say it compares favourably with teh Leaf (although it does not offer iso 800).

any comment ?

   Dr Jack
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hcubell
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2006, 02:33:37 PM »
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Michael's report noted the overriding importance of dynamic range in landscape photography in inherently contrasty light, but did not compare the Aptus 75 with the Phase P45 on this parameter. However, in the the exposures comparing the two backs at  ISO 50, it appears that the Aptus 75 held detail in the highlights in the foliage much better than the P45. I wonder if the raw captures are consistent with that perception. In short, is the P45 more apt to blow out the highlights?
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rethmeier
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 06:06:50 PM »
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The Aptus-75 and the eMotion both have 32 second maximum exposures settings.
I'm not sure wether this has to do with the design of the sensor(Dalsa) or wether it's in the software.
Does the h2/39 allow for 30 minutes?
They use the same Kodak sensor as phase and Imacon(Hassy)
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 09:17:11 PM »
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".....Does the h2/39 allow for 30 minutes?
They use the same Kodak sensor as phase and Imacon(Hassy)..."
 Hasselblad H39 allows 32sec exposure.

http://hasselblad.com/Archive/documents/Do...-39_English.pdf
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MarkKay
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 10:45:50 PM »
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The most surprising result of the current study was the high iso noise.  I had thought  from some of the comparisons I have seen, that the aptus was far superior in this department.  I have taken my aptus out in the sun and it can be hard to see the LCD at times.
 I guess it was like the sunglasses I bought the other day.. they worked great in the store but not so good when outside.
I drive a low end Mercedes and never the two vehicles MR discussed in his analogy so for me not too helpful.  
Nonetheless I do appreciate the efforts and the evaluation. mark


Quote
It was nice to get a common sense approach to these two backs and the initial "brand bashing" of the owners of previous generation backs from these companies seems to be long dead (it did happen on this site and others) - which is good.

It has to also be said that the P45 has been shown to be acceptable up to about 30 minute exposures - an order of magnitude better than any previous Phase one back, or any other back on the market. So for some photographer, this upper exposure limit - which I believe is more like 20-30 seconds on the Aptus 75 is a major consideration too - in this instance Michael did not mention this pint. As a landscape photographer I can think of many occasions where my exposures exceed 20 seconds, which might discount even the best Dalsa chipped device from my purchasing decisions (are these chips inherently worse at long exposures) ?

Furthermore Hasselblads "blanking" of Michael’s offer to review a sample is pure stupidity when he is regarded as the pre-eminent figure for doing this on the web or otherwise. We all just assume that they  (Hassie) are afraid of being "shown up" by what Phase one can achieve with ostensibly the same chip ?

Maybe the new eMotion deivce is worth a look too - most people say it compares favourably with teh Leaf (although it does not offer iso 800).

any comment ?

   Dr Jack
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MarkKay
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 10:51:49 PM »
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I guess one question i had was using with the Hassy system did either of the backs freeze up or cause any kind of error messages??? Mark


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The most surprising result of the current study was the high iso noise.  I had thought  from some of the comparisons I have seen, that the aptus was far superior in this department.  I have taken my aptus out in the sun and it can be hard to see the LCD at times.
 I guess it was like the sunglasses I bought the other day.. they worked great in the store but not so good when outside.
I drive a low end Mercedes and never the two vehicles MR discussed in his analogy so for me not too helpful.   
Nonetheless I do appreciate the efforts and the evaluation. mark
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James Russell
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 01:03:03 AM »
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Man did Phase and Leaf get a pass on this one.

Especially Phase.

I don't know who the intended market is for $30,000 camera backs and maybe it's rich dentists and Wannabe Westons, but I would bet the majority of these cameras are sold to working professionals.

People that shoot 60 gigs a day, have to make jpegs fpo, web galleries and deliver final files in days, sometimes hours.

I've use the Aptus 22 for a little over a year and I love it, but I can  honestly say from experience that you can't really learn these systems in a week, much less a day and you can't tell how they really perform until your under pressure in a real high production situation.

To begin with anybody that spends this kind of money on a camera usually has to show the image to someone to get input, feedback or god forbid approval and I have yet to meet a person that can use the Phase LCD to tell anything other than the basic composition.

That said, if you take 60 gigs of images and drop them into LC10 and try to batch adjust and process these images your going to be in for a world of hurt, even if your running the latest Quad 5.

Both these companies make good equipment that is robust, pretty well thought out and in my genre worth the money, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and that doesn’t mean that they are exactly equal.  

Anyone that owns a medium format back and camera will have a lot of instances where they have to tether to a computer.

Phase's C-1 may be the gold standard of software, but working portable with a powerbook the thumbnails load slow, the previews even slower and the capture rate can crawl to a standstill.  In my world crawling to a standstill can cost $5,000 an hour or more.

Consequently Leaf's old software V-8 allows you to shoot very fast and preview quickly to a power book with minimal slowdowns, even when shooting hundreds of images to a single folder, even to an ancient G4 powerbook pulling a 30" monitor.

These are the things a prospective buyer needs to know and any real test of this equipment should address.

Shooting and pixel examining is one thing but can these backs let you get the shot and more importantly can you confirm you have the shot before going on to something better?

The Phase LCD works in bright sunlight?  Well you can see it in bright sunlight but judging your shot well enough to know you have it, like focus, highlights, collapsed shadows, I don't think so,  not unless you put it in a computer.

The Leaf LCD doesn't work in bright sunlight?  I chuckled at that one.  I've shot it on white rooftops in Miami, mid day in Jamaica and just cupping my hand gave me a better view than even the canon lcd's so to say that the Leaf lcd is really for inside or shaded areas is like saying it would be better to always shoot with the sun behind you to cut lens flare.

I'll admit I'm partial to the Leaf because I like the company and use the product but would move to another back in a heartbeat if it made my photography better, my workflow easier or faster.

Workflow is not addressed at all in this "test" and anyone that shoots for a living can tell you digital editing, processing, storage and archiving is getting to be a full time job.  I know, because as of today I have 40 terabytes of stored and archived data, representing millions of dollars of production.

Raw conversion also weighs heavily in the decision of anyone purchasing one of these systems.  C-1 is robust and full featured and probably does more than any one software, though with Phase C-1 is pretty much your only real choice and the software is so heavy  that it takes a lot of computer to run it fast.

As I've stated Leaf's LC10 is still a work in progress (a very long progress) and way behind C-1 in functionality, but since the Leaf offers an in file Tiff for previewing, I-view and Photo Mechanic allow for very fast editing, sorting and file naming and Leaf had the foresight to open their file to other software developers a long time ago, so processing options in C-1 range from pscs, CS2, Raw Developer, LC10, Leaf V-8 and Lightroom.

To this day Leaf V-8 is amazingly stable and the fastest tethering software for any digital system I have used.

Still, it doesn’t matter to me what anyone purchases, but I do think that any test of these very important systems should be more than a few frames at different iso's.

There are so many genre's and instances where these cameras will be used in the real world that it is impossible to test every situation, but any examination should test  highlights, intentional flare, high iso, over/under exposure, client review on the camera, a powerbook or a desktop, setup, workflow and mixed light Processing options and post production should also be tested with large volumes of images in multiple lighitng and exposure changes.

In my opinion,  these products are not exactly equal.    If I was a digital tech I would use a Phase, as it requires a Tower to run fast ,  a computer monitor to give any type of useable preview and a thorough understanding of the software.    This is the perfect business model for a digital technician.  

As a photographer the Leaf is my choice.  It offers fast tethering, even to a powerbook, a workable lcd and many options on processing, which equates to having multiple labs and multiple films.  If you work in photoshop cs 1 or 2 you can process a file on a 17” G-4 powerbook in 11 seconds, on a G5 Quad in 5 and with a much quicker learning curve.  Phase processing is double that time and when your working thousands of files, it adds up quickly.

In regards to the portable setup of these two systems, the Phase looks easier, but is also more limited, sending most of the tasks to post processing.

With the Aptus, the controls are intuitive and more importantly allow for very customized settings.  Iso, white balance, even specific setting to a color chart with exact accuracy.
With the Aptus you also have highlight and shadow warnings, focus check, and using V-8 can load very specific settings to the cf card or Digital Drive.

In medium format with the file sizes so large every minute you spend upfront of the capture can save hours one the backend.

Somewhere, someday, someone is really going to test these systems side by side for not just hours but days and publish the results of how well these cameras work in the real world of professional photography.

If I was Leaf and/or Phase I would want to see a robust test from pre production to final delivery and I would want the results published to know how my product stacks up, what is needed to go forward and most important how it is received in the market.

So far nobody has done that in anything but a relaxed situation.



JR

http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/bethany/
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 01:05:00 AM by James Russell » Logged
opgr
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 04:47:29 AM »
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Shooting and pixel examining is one thing but can these backs let you get the shot and more importantly can you confirm you have the shot before going on to something better?

But you have to admit that it is commendable that a fine art landscape photographer on a landscape photography website is not telling an advertising photographer how he/she needs to do his/her work?

While I agree with your argument that real-world tests for the working photographer (including workflow assessment) aren't really available, I think that MR's findings are as they are in the context of his endeavors, taken from real-world experience. He never said you shouldn't take the car for a (week long) spin before a purchase decision. As a matter of fact, I recall him mentioning the contrary on several occasions.

Then again, I also find that the emphasis tends towards pixelpeeping lately. As an example: how many people had a MF back available on the iceland lightroom experience and what where their experiences? That might make for a small but interesting essay, no?
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Oscar Rysdyk
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 05:06:24 AM »
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I just finished a 10 day high-end catalog shoot where I had the opportunity to run both Leaf and Phase. We had two sets running, and after the first day watching the shoot crawl along because everything was tied to the Leaf a75 capture station, the photographer gave me the go ahead to setup my Phase P25 tethered to my G4 powerbook on the second set. We used it for comps and rough exposure, basically as a 20K polariod back, with final capture on the a75 to keep things consistent in output. Saved us so much time we finished a day early, and the client was thrilled.

For me it was a chance to see how both platforms, hardware and software performed, side by side. Even with the obvious differences (I would have loved to have had another tower and P45) it was a very informative experience.

I will say that if you don't know your gear inside and out before setting out on a job, you'd better hire someone that does. Having the client and/or an AD breathing down your neck while trying to sort out 'what the hell just happened' is not a pretty sight...
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 07:11:23 AM »
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That said, if you take 60 gigs of images and drop them into LC10 and try to batch adjust and process these images your going to be in for a world of hurt, even if your running the latest Quad 5.

Hi James
On AD jobs we rent the Aptus 22 for our Mamiya 645 AFDII. We did try LC10 about 3 months ago as the Digital Operator thought it was great. However as we shoot quickly tethered ( that is one of the reasons we use the Aptus 22 ) we had a lot of crashes...... Next job we went back to 8.3.4 where we have had no problems except for DO (digital operators) complaining of the three windows and not as simple as the Phase C1. My partner and I don't really care about the three windows because that is what we pay $300.00/day down here in Australia!!!!. I don't find it that complicated and would rather pay $300.00 for lighting assistants& $250.00/for a DO. I know they have had updates for LC10 but you say the speed is higher for 8? I am interested from a user point of view. By the way I have used Phase and Kodax and I feel Leaf has a beautiful quality to it.
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
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Denis Montalbetti
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michael
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 08:34:48 AM »
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James,

Your points are are well made, and I appreciate them.

One can only test based on what one does. The days of commercial shooting are for me long past. Fortunately I only have to answer to myself these days, not clients and ADs.

There's no way therefore that I can put an MF back through its paces in the same way that a commercial shooter on assignment can. I wouldn't even try.

And, therein lies the flaw in my testing. I'm testing for people like me - those who shoot at a more considered pace, and who have quite different needs and expectations that someone like yourself.

Apparenly, according to discussions with the manufacturers, about 30% of MF back purchasers are like me (non-commercial shooters), and the other 70% are like you. But, if you add those that are not working inside the pressure cooker (such as an architectural photographer) (yes I know architecture can be high stress, been there done that, but I need an example), then I'd guess that my write-ups likely have relevance to about half the potential audience.

When I read automobile reviews in some of the car magazines, and they tell me how a 4WD vehicle does on the test track, my eyes glaze over. I want to know how it does in the snow, and mud and on 4WD trails. But that's obviously a different and more problematic type of testing.

None of this is easy.

Michael
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sundstei
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 02:21:13 PM »
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I have been able to keep my mouth shut about Digital backs pretty long.. since back in the RobGalbraith days.. but in the mean time I have become the lucky owner of a nice Aptus 22 in addition to my PhaseOne backs. I have been shooting PhaseOne since i first bought my H10 ages ago.. and been a loyal Phase user since. I also do all my Canon stuff in C1, so I am pretty partial to that software. ok ok.. I love it.. (PC Version)

However, some of the greatest dissapointments I have had with the Aptus is the screen..and the software. In addition I seem to have problems with a lot of noise and "wave pattern" in the files. 100 ISO is not clean at all if you compare with PhaseOne or Canon files. 50 ISO is very nice. At 200ISO it looks like someone put a radio transmitter close to the TV..

I think this might just be my unit, as others dont seem to have this problem. No matter.. I am upgrading it to a P75 already, so I will get a completely new unit when it arrives. Will update my opinion then

The LC10 software is SLOOOOOW. I think maybe it could win some price for slowness..but I guess the Lightroom betas already won that one
Its just not usable unless you have the biggest, fastest, most roided monster Mac on the planet.

When you hook up a PhaseOne back and C1 it feels like one "unity". Its just more well packaged and working from end to end. The LC10 is showing a lot of promise, but still lacks basic features...

Oh..and that fan.. I feel so stupid when it starts to power up that I have begun to play much higher music in the studio  Some would say that is a good thing  

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Phase's C-1 may be the gold standard of software, but working portable with a powerbook the thumbnails load slow, the previews even slower and the capture rate can crawl to a standstill.  In my world crawling to a standstill can cost $5,000 an hour or more.

Consequently Leaf's old software V-8 allows you to shoot very fast and preview quickly to a power book with minimal slowdowns, even when shooting hundreds of images to a single folder, even to an ancient G4 powerbook pulling a 30" monitor.

I have read this several times now from you James, but I still cant get my G4 15" to do faster than 1 shot every 10 sec. What on earth can I be doing wrong?? It must be something?? I am running v8.4.4.

Phase/C1 on the same machine performs super....
Also, shooting teethered on a PC is just SOOOO much nicer than C1 on Mac.

I truly hope Leaf will have the Win version ready soon.


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The Leaf LCD doesn't work in bright sunlight?  I chuckled at that one.  I've shot it on white rooftops in Miami, mid day in Jamaica and just cupping my hand gave me a better view than even the canon lcd's so to say that the Leaf lcd is really for inside or shaded areas is like saying it would be better to always shoot with the sun behind you to cut lens flare.

I have to agree with Michael.. the Leaf screen is useless in even Norwegian sunlight. I  wish we could get a nice screen like Canon has on one a digital back... Give the Aptus some shade and things look a lot better, but still far inferior to even some pocket camera screens. Its big.. but size dont matter. Just ask a lady what she preffer.. a big floppy one.. or a normal ready-for-action  

I guess we all develop a kind of "calibration" to read what the screen is actually showing. I am maybe not there with the Leaf yet, but have no problem judging highlights etc on the Canons which I use all the time. The Phase screen is of course just patetic..

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Raw conversion also weighs heavily in the decision of anyone purchasing one of these systems.  C-1 is robust and full featured and probably does more than any one software, though with Phase C-1 is pretty much your only real choice and the software is so heavy  that it takes a lot of computer to run it fast.

Leaf is not supported by that much more convertes than PhaseOne.

Leaf;
Leaf Capture
Raw Developer
Camera Raw
Lightroom

PhaseOne;
Capture One (both Win and Mac)
Raw Developer
Camera Raw (if direct from camera)

Also I hear that Lightroom has support in next version, but that is just a rumor. But hey, is anyone really using Lightroom in a professional setting yet..? Its slow and buggy still, and will need a couple of more versions (not betas) to get a place in my workflow.


BTW James, are you upgrading to the P75, or just staying with what is tried and true? ISO 800 on Michael's test does not look very promising as a upgrade teaser.

Ps! I do actually really like the Leaf  Just some small things I would love to see fixed

Svein Erik
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 02:59:51 PM »
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I am using the non-Intel Macs, G4 power book (2g RAM), 1.67 GhZ and a desktop G5, and I agree the Leaf software mediated conversion is extremely slow.  However, RAW Developer is fast and the interface is user friendly.  I have compared conversions in CS2 and Raw Developer and I can extract more detail using Raw Developer.  Mark
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Boghb
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 03:45:06 PM »
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I was one of the people highly critical of the p45 on account of lens cast.  I was using the P45 with Hassy V and Schneider Digitar lenses, some of which projected unacceptable amounts of unwanted color in my images.  

My criticism was directed mainly at Phase's initial failure to adequately warn me about the problem and walk me through the remedy -- the lens cast correction tool in C1.

Since then, I have switched to the H2 system and Rodenstock HR lenses.  I no longer see cast on the preview.  There is still some small amount of cast with most lenses, and it can be seen only after substantial image manipulation in clear areas, such as snow or sky.  Also, even the small amount of cast can cause an erroneous WB reading.

So I still find it necessary to use the LCC tool to take out the cast for most images, but I no longer take a reading for every shoot or capture.  I am happy enough with a single reference shot taken with each lens and recorded in C1.

I should also point out that Phase's dealer was extremely helpful and Phase support did come around at some point in the process.  So, after all the grief I gave Phase over some of these pages, I must say they deserve my thanks at the end of the process for getting the problem resolved.
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mkravit
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2006, 10:02:08 PM »
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I think what MR is doing is great, testing new equipment and moving from one platform to the next over short periods of time inspires the more affluent photographers to continually buy the newest stuff on the market.

This supports the manufacturers R&D efforts and helps to drive prices down. Heck, Leaf is now offering the Aptus 17 for $7K.

James Russell is dead on in his assessment of the state of MF digital. His well thought out and intuitive arguments are based on real work, high pressure commerce.

What MR fails to point out or show in his testing is that the Aptus file has significantly less noise and significantly more detail than the P45 WHEN processed in Raw Developer and to a lesser extent in Leaf Capture. As a result I find this test to be amiss and really quite irrelevent when viewed from this perspective.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 10:04:58 PM by mkravit » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2006, 10:45:07 PM »
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What MR fails to point out or show in his testing is that the Aptus file has significantly less noise and significantly more detail than the P45 WHEN processed in Raw Developer and to a lesser extent in Leaf Capture. As a result I find this test to be amiss and really quite irrelevent when viewed from this perspective.
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Anyone who has tried to do such tests knows it is hard to get everthing right. Michael tried and should be thanked for that.

In my view, the best way to do these things though is to gather experts of each system, using the same body (and Hassy H1/H2 obviously) and lens (a Hassy 120 mm macro obviously) pointed at the same landscape subject.

Each expert will know what software is best to convert the RAW data etc...

There are probably several users of A75 and H2D around Toronto, it shouldn't be impossible to spend 1/2 day in a location close to town to re-do such a test in a rigorous way.

Regards,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2006, 08:14:51 AM »
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In the real world, testing all the permutations and combinations of developers with multiple backs is an imposability.

What about the Phase One in Camera Raw and the Leaf in V8? Or The Leaf in V10 and the P45 in Lightroom? Of course we could talk about Lightroom with either vs. Capture 8 or 10 and Capture One. The possabilities are endless. ( I used a pre-pre-release version of Lightroom beta for my comparisons).

Just because I haven't tested or commented on the particular back and developer that that you favour means little to someone who may be using other combinations, particularly when they stick with the manufacturer's offering because of the need to work tethered.

Michael
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2006, 09:37:36 AM »
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When I read automobile reviews in some of the car magazines, and they tell me how a 4WD vehicle does on the test track, my eyes glaze over. I want to know how it does in the snow, and mud and on 4WD trails. But that's obviously a different and more problematic type of testing.

None of this is easy.

Michael
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Michael,

I'm not a camera tester, paid or otherwise.  Well let me take that back, digital capture has made me a camera tester, but only for my own edification.

Using your  car analogy, when I read a car review the first things I want to know is will it completely work for me.  Can I carry a suitcase, get decent service, drive fast enough to do jail time, or better yet out run the police and avoid jail time.  Will buying a BMW improve my driving or just my social status?

Personally I only care about the driving because my social status was shot a long time ago.

When I read a review on two digital backs like this, once again I want to know will they work for me.

Speed is important even in nature photography where wild life, wind, even cloud formations can change rapidly.  Will a P-45 tether to a power book and let me shoot at a sustained rate, will the A-75 do the same? This is especially important to a Phase user due to the issues with Phase's lcd.

Can I process these files in ANY software in rapid time, without having to buy Steve Jobs  a new Cessna Citation.

To me, the most important reason for your tests is to give public exposure to the benefits and the flaws of these cameras.

I don't think any Phase review is complete without touching on the issue of the Phase LCD.  Why they even bother is beyond me.  I'm not Phase bashing but this is a common complaint of the Phase and one that I am sure has effected their sales.  

For some reason the Phase file does not have an embedded tiff, like the Leaf so previews must be rendered in software.  Maybe that is the reason the Phase lcd preview is so rough.

Also without this embedded preview using fast editing software like I-view or Photo Mechanic won't work with the Phase, but will with the Leaf as only raw files that have embedded tiffs or jpegs can be read by those image editors.

This is can be lifesaver for sorting, renaming, editing, moving, copying and deleting files quickly which is important in any genre, especially in field use.

What I-view and Photo Mechanic does today is really one of the reasons Lightroom and Aperture is entering the market (I guess).  Still these functions are important.

Not to give Leaf a pass but I would have liked to see a more comprehensive use of leaf software, v-8 and LC10.

I'm not a fan of LC10 as it's slow, disconnected and to this day not very stable.  In fact I believe Leaf followed Phase to make LC10 a C-1 look alike which in my thoughts is a mistake as for pure tethering , shooting and preview speed is more important than back end processing and file sorting, naming and review.

Had Leaf developed an easier interface for V-8 but kept in stripped down and in three parts as it currently is I believe that would have been a much better product and could capitalize on the fact the Leaf is known for speed in capture, previews and iso.

At least V-8 is still in release and I can use it and do on a daily basis.

The other aspect I would have liked to see is use of all third party software, iview, PM, Raw Developer, CS, CS2, lightroom.

Some of these programs are quite mature (some like lightroom still a work in progress)  and in the case of cs and cs2 very fast in processing.  

Having multiple converters also offers multiple looks, just like using various films and labs and we all know the benefits of this.

Personally I'm not a fan of large computers to run these cameras, either on set, on location or in post processing.  New computers are expensive, but more importantly time consuming and require almost a year of release until all the bugs are worked out with all the various softwares they must run.

That is why for my work I use two G4 17" powerbooks, V-8, I-view and pscs (1).  Not very forward thinking though my results are excellent, my workflow fast, my investment is minimal and most importantly my time is used for actual billing work, rather than beta testing, bug fixing and software installing.

For a long time Leaf has made their file information available to anyone that asks and converting a .mos file to a dng is a quick and easy process, allows for smaller storage, universal processing, automatic renaming and even larger embedded previews.

Phase says they support DNG though C-1 only supports a few flavors of dng, like the Leica dng, but will not process a Leaf file converted to DNG.

So what is the purpose of DNG if it is not truly universal.

Since your a big proponent of dng I was a little disappointed that DNG and open files were not mentioned in reference to these two systems.

Personally I have no agenda other than to see all of these systems get better, faster, cheaper and easier to use.

Somewhere in this thread was a mention of a $7,000 A-17.  If that is true then this should be headline news as for the first time, a truly functional medium format back is available for dslr prices.  This not only allows new users to step up to better quality, but also allows current mfdb users to add an inexpensive backup to their current systems.


In summary I can appreciate how difficult it must be to test these systems side, by side and come to any conclusions, still both systems offer great results but much diferent forms of operation and workflow and without real information of the back end investment requried to make these systems viable and good for the long haul leaves most potential buyers guessing.

Granted what I shoot may seem different and more pressured than the genre you work in but in many ways their similiar.  Shooting busy workers in Bangledish is to me the same as shooting a $25,000 day model in Milan, except the kind ship workers don't complain about the catering.

Still, both genrres are just subject, light, composition and background and for my money (and these cameras requrie a lot of money), I must make an investment that gives me the broadest range of use, the most options and the best service after the sale.

These are the things I would like to see addressed.

Best Regards,

JR
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« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 10:50:53 AM by James Russell » Logged
SeanBK
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2006, 04:02:29 PM »
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James, I love your articulated approach to M.F Digibacks. Thanks. FYI I am not sure of exact price, but A17 along with Hassey 16 MP backs do sell for under $10,000. As a matter of fact one can buy 16MP Hassey back with limited edition 500 series camera @ 11,000. Often I find that I do miss that waistlevel-viewfinder look, though sometimes it is downright neccesity, as I getting too old to sit on the ground , get up & move to a different location.
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rethmeier
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2006, 05:49:38 PM »
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I would like to thank James Russell as well!
I've always enjoyed reading his comments at the RG forums!
Thank you James for making my life a lot less complicated.
Your info is priceless!
Last but not least, I also have to give my support to Michael Reichmann as well!
I find his info to be very informative in a different way.
Regards,
Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com
Sydney Australia
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