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Author Topic: New digital backs from Leaf  (Read 9790 times)
WillyV.
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« on: September 15, 2006, 08:28:12 AM »
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Just red on the web that Leaf is coming with brand new backs... Faster than any other on the market.
Take a look at: http://www.digitalcameratracker.com/archiv...backs-ever.html
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2006, 08:43:44 AM »
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Just red on the web that Leaf is coming with brand new backs... Faster than any other on the market.
Take a look at: http://www.digitalcameratracker.com/archiv...backs-ever.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No mention of an upgrade path then ? Or pricing for that matter. You would assume the same as the present Aptus "flavours" ?
I can't see that many people upgrading just for FPS, but then some people will really value it - is James Russel on-line yet ?  
It may well win over a segment of new back buyers from D-SLRs, making them go Leaf rather than Phase /Hasselblad, so a good technology move - all they need to do now is addres the "centrefold issue" and find a way to make dark frame subtraction work like Phase does (up to 1/2 an hour noise "free").


Ed
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2006, 09:19:46 AM »
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Nice that they are getting faster but this is more evolution than revolution
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marcwilson
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2006, 09:28:50 AM »
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faster..i just want cheaper..same 'full size' chip..22mp +..just more affordable please...even a 'full size' 17mp would be fine to start with..at least I could put it on my mf camera and use its 16bit, star lenses , wide angles, etc to get great large images.
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 09:52:16 AM »
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faster..i just want cheaper..same 'full size' chip..22mp +..just more affordable please...even a 'full size' 17mp would be fine to start with..at least I could put it on my mf camera and use its 16bit, star lenses , wide angles, etc to get great large images.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76433\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 A "full frame" 17MP chip would cost about the same as a full frame 22MP chip. Failure rates of the silicon is mostly sensor area driven NOT absolute MP driven. It is this which determines the cost - as well as market forces.

There is a chance that Kodak is going to reveal a "true 645full frame" chip at "Kina", but my source is "dodgy". MR would have a better idea as he is "in the Phase One loop" as far as I know.

Ed
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KenRexach
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2006, 10:02:11 AM »
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Just red on the web that Leaf is coming with brand new backs... Faster than any other on the market.
Take a look at: http://www.digitalcameratracker.com/archiv...backs-ever.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Canon is coming with a 22MP 1Ds thats pretty fast so MFDB makers know their <22mp model's days are numbered.
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2006, 10:03:04 AM »
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[span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']HOLD on a Minute![/span]


[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']
The actual shoot speeds are specified here (taken from Leaf press release)

Leaf Aptus 75S 33 MP 48 mm x 36 mm 1.1 sec/frame Unlimited 53 1.1 50 - 800
Leaf Aptus 65S 28 MP 44 mm x 33 mm 0.9 sec/frame Unlimited 63 0.9 50 - 800
Leaf Aptus 54S 22 MP 48 mm x 36 mm 0.8 sec/frame Unlimited 75 0.8 25 - 400
* Speed depend on camera configuration

So in fact [SIZE=14]ONLY[/span] the Aptus 54S shoots as fast as 0.8 sec/frame. The Aptus 75S isn't sigificantly faster than the Aptus 75
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awofinden
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2006, 10:33:00 AM »
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I don't know about you guys but this is one of the advances I was waiting for, when you shoot fashion, fast frame rates are super important.
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eronald
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2006, 10:56:20 AM »
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I don't know about you guys but this is one of the advances I was waiting for, when you shoot fashion, fast frame rates are super important.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

1 second is a long time in Fashion.
But then they used to shoot MF fashion quite well in the old days with Blads, too.

The real issue is price, as we all know. The backs simply cost too much. I expect Mamiya to come out with an improved 22MP camera with good file depth for Photokina and then we'll all be queuing up to buy it.

Edmund
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marcwilson
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2006, 11:15:23 AM »
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when I say 'full frame' I do of course mean 'full frame' as the manufacturers like to call them!..i.e not realy full frame!..not expecting to get that for a while....so..how about a cheaper 47mmx 38mm sensor back!..17/22/whatever.
marc
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MarkKay
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2006, 12:20:01 PM »
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Will this replace or be in addition to existing backs?

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Just red on the web that Leaf is coming with brand new backs... Faster than any other on the market.
Take a look at: http://www.digitalcameratracker.com/archiv...backs-ever.html
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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pixjohn
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2006, 12:23:21 PM »
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I still don't have a working Aptus 75 and now they come out with new back.

TO LEAF, PLEASE FIX YOUR APTUS 75 LINE BEFORE COMING OUT WITH NEW BACKS. INSTEAD OF DOING RD ON NEW PRODUCTS, GET THE FIRST PRODUCT WORKING.

IF YOU CANNOT TELL BY MY POST, I AM MORE THEN A LITTLE FRUSTERED.

After purchasing an Aptus 75 5-6 months ago waiting 4 months to receive it and then discovering it does not work correctly. I have both a centerline and color cast.

I purchased the Aptus 75 after my evaluation and shooting on an Aptus 75 demo back. I had no centerline and no color shift. When I received my back I now have colorcast and an added centerline through the image. I went with Leaf over the Phase-one because the leaf had no color shifts and a clean file.  

 
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2006, 04:15:25 PM »
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I expect Mamiya to come out with an improved 22MP camera with good file depth for Photokina and then we'll all be queuing up to buy it.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund,

Out of curiosity, do you have any first hand evidence that the current Mamiya ZD has actual shortcomings compared to - say - a Leaf 22 MP in terms of color transitions or highlight handling as a result of its lower bit depth?

I have seen zero comparison so far, but all the reports I have read on the ZD seem to be very positive about these aspects.

Regards,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
eronald
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2006, 04:47:30 PM »
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Edmund,

Out of curiosity, do you have any first hand evidence that the current Mamiya ZD has actual shortcomings compared to - say - a Leaf 22 MP in terms of color transitions or highlight handling as a result of its lower bit depth?

I have seen zero comparison so far, but all the reports I have read on the ZD seem to be very positive about these aspects.

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76490\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard,
I have no firsthand evidence here. From my reading of the web, my impression is that this camera has got steadily better, be it through firmware updates or through improved raw conversion software. I have handled a preproduction sample of the ZD and like the build, the viewfinder, and the focus action, but I don't know anything about image quality.

However, I have long been a Canon 1Ds user, and what I now really want is better pixels and not more of them; the Canon resolution is good enough for me, the file quality is not. I have noticed that cameras with more bit depth tend to produce files which I like more - speaking from samples I have seen posted.

I could put the matter to rest fairly easily by testing. However here in France digital is actually more like buying a colt and hoping it will win races when it grows up. I plan to buy some MF solution within a couple of months, but will purchase from a dealer outside France as I've had enough of the local snobs - my Canon dealer from whom I purchased two EOS-1 bodies actually allowed me to hold an H2D for 5 minutes !!!!

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 15, 2006, 04:48:32 PM by eronald » Logged
pss
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2006, 05:02:52 PM »
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1 second is a long time in Fashion.
But then they used to shoot MF fashion quite well in the old days with Blads, too.

The real issue is price, as we all know. The backs simply cost too much. I expect Mamiya to come out with an improved 22MP camera with good file depth for Photokina and then we'll all be queuing up to buy it.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

most flash packs do not recycle under one second, and yes none of the MF cameras advanced film that fast (other then Rollei) and manually is about one second (not counting steadying oyurself after whipping the cranck:)...)

price is not really the issue..we can see that with the ZD...and now aptus17 are sold at 7500$ (refurb.)...of course if there was a 22mpix back at 5000 they would sell quite a few, but that is not realistic yet and even if it was why should they? canon was thinking about dropping the price of their flagship 1Ds from 8000 to 5000 when the nikons came out (and the kodak was half the price)...they waited to see and found out that even at 8000 they could not keep them in stock...
anyone waiting for a serious pricebreak will be disapointed...last years backs will always be cheaper then the top of the line (see aptus17 which is a real bargain..less then the new canon will be and still better no matter how many pix they can squeeze onto 24x36...)
one of the advantages of the dalsa chip is that the backs can be design in a more modual way, and that the data can be taken out of the chip in 2 or 4 channels, so it is easier to take the same chip, put in a buffer (like the sinar emotion line) put in FW800 (like imacon) and utilize the faster extreme IV cards and come out with a new fast line of backs...
the entire industry sells maybe 500-1000? backs a year in the world...their margins are still very small and they constantly have to come up with something new to upstage their competition...all the time with canon breathing down their neck...and selling 10.000s

the canon has to deal with a fraction of the data, which is why it can be so much faster and which is why the files do not hold up to the comparison...and they are not really worried about the MF market...
the new MF backs are MF by design only....the P45, A75, E75...are really instant 4x5 scans...the idea that somebody NEEDS to shoot this quality 1frame/sec is actually funny, because it would not be possible with film....

20mpix 16bit full frame(almost) is better then MF film...the canons (also the existing 1DsmkII) is almost as good and shoots whoknowshowmany frames/sec....which MF camera can do that and what do you need it for? i am asking because i don't really remember seeing too many hasselbladV on the sidelines in the old days...

if canon would come out with a 3:4 chip they would pretty much kill MF off completely...eventually they will figure out how to make their chips 16bit and handle that data with the speed they need...

but i guess by then there would be backs producing 20f-stops range 50mpix files....but they would not be cheap either....and why should they?
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marcwilson
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« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2006, 06:57:47 PM »
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steve, it is not the mega pixels per se that  i would love at a good  price..i am more than happy with aptus 17 in terms of pixels when used in conjunction with film back if necessary..and there current refurn prices are great..it is just the extra sensor crop that lessens the wide of my wide angle lenses!
I need my mf wides to be as wide as possible with film and digital..hence my desire for an affordable (for me) 48x36mm back.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2006, 07:00:12 PM »
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most flash packs do not recycle under one second, and yes none of the MF cameras advanced film that fast

Exactly. 2 frames per second would actually be faster than my recycle time, but 'nice to have' anyway.
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« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2006, 07:20:52 PM »
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if canon would come out with a 3:4 chip they would pretty much kill MF off completely...eventually they will figure out how to make their chips 16bit and handle that data with the speed they need...

35mm based cameras could never be a replacement for me. I want LARGE waist level viewfinders, and the special look of MF.

In fact, as time marches on, the price gap between 35mm and MF systems will continue to shrink, so that other features will become relatively more important (such as viewfinders, etc)
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mcfoto
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« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2006, 07:25:33 PM »
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Quote from: Ed Jack,Sep 15 2006, 10:03 AM
[span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']HOLD on a Minute![/span]

The actual shoot speeds are specified here (taken from Leaf press release)

Leaf Aptus 75S 33 MP 48 mm x 36 mm 1.1 sec/frame Unlimited 53 1.1 50 - 800
Leaf Aptus 65S 28 MP 44 mm x 33 mm 0.9 sec/frame Unlimited 63 0.9 50 - 800
Leaf Aptus 54S 22 MP 48 mm x 36 mm 0.8 sec/frame Unlimited 75 0.8 25 - 400
* Speed depend on camera configuration

That is a huge speed increase for the Aptus75 (33mp). It used to be 1.85 sec/frame. For jobs I currently use the Aptus 22 1.2 sec/frame. That means the Aptus 75S 33 is the fastest back on the market at this point. This really hurts Hasselblad as where is there back they announced last year?? When I mean fast the larger sensors 33mp new generation chip. Plus they have iso 800. This is exciting news.

Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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pixjohn
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2006, 08:35:41 PM »
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I think its great Leaf has a faster back. Now all I need is a back without a line and color cast.
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