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Author Topic: New digital backs from Leaf  (Read 9937 times)
ddolde
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2006, 11:01:24 PM »
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Wow another whole new line of defective products !
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izaack
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« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2006, 03:11:58 AM »
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Wow another whole new line of defective products !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

  You beat me to it, Doug. I am about to say that it is one thing to read and then get excited about Leaf's press releases, and another thing to expect Leaf to deliver on its promises contained therein.
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Frere Jacques
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« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2006, 06:46:46 AM »
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I could put the matter to rest fairly easily by testing. However here in France digital is actually more like buying a colt and hoping it will win races when it grows up. I plan to buy some MF solution within a couple of months, but will purchase from a dealer outside France as I've had enough of the local snobs - my Canon dealer from whom I purchased two EOS-1 bodies actually allowed me to hold an H2D for 5 minutes !!!!

Edmund
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Edmund-

LOL! Amen to that!!! Your Canon dealer wouldn't happen to be located on rue Thimonnier, would it...?
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eronald
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« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2006, 07:59:06 AM »
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Edmund-

LOL! Amen to that!!! Your Canon dealer wouldn't happen to be located on rue Thimonnier, would it...?
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I know who you mean. The shoe fits. Unfortunately it fits most of them.

Edmund
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Frere Jacques
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« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2006, 08:15:49 AM »
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I know who you mean. The shoe fits. Unfortunately it fits most of them.

Edmund
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Unfortumately true! I wonder how some of them stay in business...I did find a good Nikon dealer at Porte de Champerret -- they are even open on Saturdays!!!
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eronald
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« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2006, 08:32:31 AM »
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Unfortumately true! I wonder how some of them stay in business...I did find a good Nikon dealer at Porte de Champerret -- they are even open on Saturdays!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, enjoy - and if you find a decent MF back dealer, please tell me

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 16, 2006, 08:33:17 AM by eronald » Logged
James Russell
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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2006, 12:09:51 AM »
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You beat me to it, Doug. I am about to say that it is one thing to read and then get excited about Leaf's press releases, and another thing to expect Leaf to deliver on its promises contained therein.
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I think defective is somewhat harsh.

Yes, Leaf does open the door for critique as they have a history of making promises on features and software then missing their self imposed (advertised)  deadlines, sometimes missing them by miles instead of inches.

If you step back and look at any camera system, film or digital they have all only offered the 80% solution and if you read product introduction PDF'S they are all very optimistic.

In the days of film,  an RZ would shoot thoughtfull, but not fast, a Hasselblad had great detail but was diffuclt to focus, the a Nikon F5 was probably the most versitile film camera ever made, but it still was limited by the film size and proportion . . . later limited by Nikon's lens lineup.

None of these sytems are perfect and yes the centerfold issue for view camera users seems to be a problem for anyone using wide view camera lenses, just like Phase's lcd can be an issue when shooting portable, Imacon's slowness in shipping new product and reaching higher iso also has caused concern.

Nobody really has yet devised the perfect digital solution for everything and as we did for film we found workarounds.

Actually as professionals that is one of the things we are paid for.

Leaf's annoucement for faster capture may be a plus for some, but for me, even shooting people and shooting a lot of setups a day, the A-22 even shooting uncompressed has been as fast as I've needed.

Rather than just a capture speed increase I would like to see higher iso, without going to large file sizes, along with more stable and intuitive software.

Knowing all of this I shoot 90% of everything with the Leaf and hae few issues.

In a way I find Leaf confusing.  Their tech service and attention to customers is outstanding, their file is beautiful and their backs probably are the most versitile.

They have a software in V-8 that is rock stable, works as well on G4 powerbooks as it does a Quad 5, the ability to fine tune a file in the software (v-8) and put these settings into the back can save hours of post production time.  They have the most versitile open source file in the industry and I'll say this again, the Leaf file is the most film like look I have seen in any digital capture.

Those are the positives, but then Leaf turns around and annouces new and improved product before addressing the issues their current cusomters have with their still almost new product.



JR
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nicolaasdb
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2006, 03:18:32 AM »
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Long email...might be a little confusing..I write the way I think!! Sorry.....

 I just ordered a Leaf 65...tested both Phase P30 and P45 and the leaf A75 and Russel is right....the leaf gives me the best film look..the phase backs where to digital (sharp and strange looking images...colors and skin textures where very sharp too sharp!)

The phase sales rep was an asshole..started with banging his car door about 5 times into my car! .....and instead of selling me the backs..he kept on hammering on that stupid software program...yeah yeah I heard you ...it is fantastic...but I don't want to change my workflow and he couldn't or wouldn't help me trying to integrate his system into my workflow. He will be a good rep when you are changing from film to digital and you see him as a messiah! But if you have been shooting digital for 3-4 years you know what you like and don't like!! But he didn't get it!! And than telling me the back comes in a very sturdy hardcase! Who cares? Ever heard of Pelican cases??

On top of it all the LCD  on the Phase backs are useless!! why bother putting one on it at all??..you can't see the image it looks like a bad GIF's. The previews in C1 looked pixelated...how can I ever show my clients the crummy previews....or I have to process the images...and that takes forever!! The images from my ds1mrkII looked better in the C1 than their own phase back images...go figure!?!? He was trying to make the colors work.. I was shooting and comparing the images to my ds1mII...but he couldn't get the colors right, so he went back into his sales pitch about the wonderful features of C1pro...

Than the leaf rep came by....great guy...knowledgeable....didn't try to convince me to change me workflow....showed me his software...but when I mentioned RAW developer....he said he tested both his software and the RAW developer and he said the image quality were both great! He even suggested to keep my own workflow. I liked the large display...but again a GIF looking images..better than the Phase display, but not good enough to make a evaluation...(why can't they just add jpg info into the RAW image??? We all know that the jpg won't be the final image, but it is easier to judge the shadows and highlights on model face.

I compared the images back in the office and the quality of both the phase and the leaf backs is outstanding. I guess the phase rep had a bad day!
I subdye printed shadows and hair and hairlines closeups and large r2400 epson prints 13x17......and both the phase and the leaf are super quality products!...BUT then when you look at a leaf image it is like you are looking at a real life person...with the phase it is like looking at a great image...if this makes any sense?

I still love my ds1mkII...the speed and ease of use...but missed my medium format camera so much..that I had to go back to the MF format.....and since it is so slow!!! I went for the RZ67. SO I won't be so frustrated....also love the fact that I can use the AFDII Mamiya with the same back..best of both worlds!!! I hope...delivery is crazy slow!!! 8-10 weeks..BUT the rep is getting me a loaner everytime I need it until delivery!!! Perfect service
« Last Edit: September 17, 2006, 03:22:49 AM by nicolaasdb » Logged
Eric Zepeda
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2006, 05:58:37 AM »
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We all know the Phase lcd sucks. I should know as  I have a P25, but useless? I don't think so. I get most of the essential info in a very straightforward user interface. As MR said, after awhile you get quite used to it. Would I love the Aptus display along with the customization options? Of course, and I do hope Phase improves this very soon or my next back could very well be a Leaf.

That said, I would be very frustrated if I spent over 30K on a back and had the problems that A75 users are experiencing. Michael Kravit relayed some possible workaround solutions from Leaf in another thread. Has anyone tried these? I fortunately, have not had the occasion to.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=12079
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ericstaud
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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2006, 11:09:15 AM »
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I am in the same situation as Michael Kravit.  Leaf has a perfectly workable software solution.  When you take your image you have to shoot a white plastic disc.  There is then a simple software correction that fixes the issue with the Aptus 75.  Does this sound familiar to Phase One Users.  What is so upsetting to me is that my Aptus 75 works almost as poorly for shooting architecture as the Phase One Backs.  Almost, but not as poorly.  Leaf has told me and Michael and Pixjohn that we will receive replacement backs that do not show this issue.   Have any Phase One owners been told by Phase One customer service that they will replace your P25 and P45 backs with ones that do not exhibit LCC issues?

Saying that Leaf has released a whole new line of defective products is a liitle childish.  I have dealt with defective, poorly designed, or poorly implemented products from Leaf, Phase One, Nikon, Canon, Alpa, Gitzo, Apple Computers, and Hasselblad in the last few years.  Sometimes I feel more like a Beta tester than a photographer.  I try to keep my imput on the forums constructive and informative despite my urges to be vindictive.

-Eric
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pss
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« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2006, 11:35:14 AM »
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first it think it is not fair to claim that leaf is bringing out faulty equipment...the issue with the APtus is a dalsa issue, the emotion75 shows the same problems...i understand the frustration that comes with spending that kind of money and being unlucky becuase you got a back with a chip with a problem...

part of the problem might be the web and forums like this, where announcements are treated like actual deliveries and 2 weeks after the anouncement it is all old news...and the product is 4months away from actually shipping....this puts pressure on the manufacturers to come up with something new and exciting and it better show some major changes....

everybody using a intelmac knows that this is the bleeding edge...yes there are issues, PS runs slow...and slowly all other software becomes native....if i was running a printshop, there is no way i would switch before all is set..perfectly and all problems are solved..which will take about 2 years...

the really relyable products we know out there right now are the P25 and the A22...pretty much no surprises there...the P45 and A75 work, but...

yes these companies are using us as testers to a certain degree...mostly because we are rattling at the door for them to release a product that probably needs a 1 year every day test run to iron out every wrinkle....

as far as i know all companies are guilty and so are we for asking for more, faster....singling out leaf is not fair..especially the week they announce V10 for PC:)

about the faster leaf backs..i really don't think that there will e any real problems with those...all the technology is in place...all they had to do was put in a buffer, FW800 and enable the faster CF cards...it seems like it will be the same chips..just getting the data off faster by "widening" the channels...i think it is a brilliant marketing move from leaf, announcing a whole new line of backs without too much real investment in chips or technology and leaving phase, sinar, imacon to announce...what?

btw: phase lists improved profiles for cleaner whites in the 3.7.5 release of C1...haven't downloaded...just like with apple...i usually wait a week or so for others to find some bugs...most important is a product that works...
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2006, 12:21:12 AM »
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part of the problem might be the web and forums like this, where announcements are treated like actual deliveries and 2 weeks after the anouncement it is all old news...and the product is 4months away from actually shipping....this puts pressure on the manufacturers to come up with something new and exciting and it better show some major changes....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=76679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hum, or could it be that manufacturers aren't clear enough when they announce a product about the actual availability?

Or could it be that the average time lag between announcement and actual availability is just too long?

Regards,
Bernard
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2006, 08:42:45 AM »
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Hum, or could it be that manufacturers aren't clear enough when they announce a product about the actual availability?

Or could it be that the average time lag between announcement and actual availability is just too long?

Regards,
Bernard
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I think part of it often is the result of incomplete communication between the Engineering and Marketing departments.

Marketing wants "it" out ASAP, while Engineering would prefer that "it" be done right. Marketing asks "When can you have 'it' ready?", and Engineering, aware that it is very hard to make ironclad predictions, says something like, "If everything goes extremely smoothly (which is unlikely), we may be able to have 'it' ready in three to six months."

And then Marketing, always optimistic, announces that "It" will be At Your Dealer in just over Two Months!!!"    

Eric
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2006, 08:55:47 AM »
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I think part of it often is the result of incomplete communication between the Engineering and Marketing departments.

Eric
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Eric,

I believe that you are exactly right, but either way, I thought it was a bit unfair to blame the resulting customer disapointement on those customers. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
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bwpuk
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« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2006, 12:11:00 PM »
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Although I don't yet possess a MFDB I always read this part of the forum as it always has something of interest. I'm always amazed at rather placid nature of some of the photographers who have had problems with their new backs and equally dismayed at the lack of response in dealing with the problems from the people who made them. I mean this things cost in excess of twenty grand don't they?

All I hope is that as time goes by Mamiya and Pentax and maybe Rollei get their act together so that there are more options for us, because all these things I'm reading here are putting me off getting one. If I stumped up all this money for one I'd want it to work without any issues. No excuses for software, bad LCD displays,  sensors supplied from Dalsa etc. etc. Or am I being a bit naive in expecting to receive what I pay for and for it to work properly.

If you were sold a BMW and found out after you bought it that it will only go 50mph what would you do, wait until the manufacturer wanted to fix it?

Just my 2 cents !
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