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Author Topic: Anonymity on this part of the forum? No thanks.  (Read 17386 times)
James Russell
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2006, 11:39:10 PM »
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I'd like to know whether any of the underground pro forums have been active enough to prove useful?
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I don't know what underground means, but private forums can be very useful if the participants are knowledgable and the agenda is non selfish.

Let's be realistic, RG, Fred Miranda, even this site have an agenda beyond just the sharing of information and the building of a professional community.

Not that there is anything wrong with Micahel's DVD's or seminars or RG's advertising, FM scripts, they are all very clear what their motivation is and have never once hidden it.

Still, when someone with a following, like Mark, post on this forum it adds viewship for what really is a for profit enterprise.

Mark, as I have only posted in public to share, or to hopefully learn, but there has never been an added agenda to our posts and at some point I had to step back and ask myself why was I investing the time to participate.

Still, there is nothing wrong or hidden with most private forums, it's just much easier and safer to post "work product" information on a private forum that to take the risk of laying it out there in public, because you know exactly who you are talking to and if the sharing is reciprocal.

Everytime I am willing to post publically, someone on one of these public forums gets in a DP Review type argument, or like I read recently on this forum some photogrpaher was mad because he wasn't allowed on a private forum and had a hissy fit.

To me, that type of post comes across to me as bitter and makes me want to stay away from the public forums.

But to answer the question, yes private forums are very, very effective if the agenda is clear and everyone is honest and open.  In fact it becomes more than just a place to kill time or find a quick software fix.  

You become part of a trusted community where the world becomes your production base and sharing is the rule, not the exception.  You learn people's personalities, enjoy the differences and most importantly appreciate the trust.

Yes private forums are very effecitve.


IMO

JR
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 12:04:18 AM by James Russell » Logged
ronno
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2006, 12:00:04 AM »
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I don't know what underground means, but private forums can be very useful if the participants are knowledgable and the agenda is non selfish.

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Hi James,

Underground means private and hard to find.

I ask because I was on a couple of private forums which sprouted up when RobG hit the skids, and there was VERY little activity. I guess I ended up coming back to a couple public forums for the breadth of knowledge.

On this site, especially in the Printers forum, I have gotten a lot of useful informaiton.

Best,
-ron
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Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2006, 12:46:49 AM »
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Still, there is nothing wrong or hidden with most private forums, it's just much easier and safer to post "work product" information on a private forum that to take the risk of laying it out there in public, because you know exactly who you are talking to and if the sharing is reciprocal.

My point is simply that you can only expect so much from a public forum, where the rules are very loose, like they are here. The rules could change, with feedback to the administrator, to require more accountability from each participant, or they could stay the same and maintain only a certain level of sharing.

There is a definite difference between 35mm geartalk amongst amateurs, and then Medium Format gear, where many people really make their living with it and their income and reputation is based on their shooting and post-production. Nothing wrong with vacation pictures, but you won't get a lot of quality feedback from pros. And if you're a working professional, my feeling is that you should be willing to share your name, website, etc if you come to a forum and ask questions. It adds context, and it also encourages more responsible communication. If you went into a meeting with a client, you wouldn't introduce yourself as "leicalover69" or something silly like that. We are all adults; this is not a Chat Room on MySpace.

There is a lot to learn, and keep up with, in all this Medium Format Confusion. It seems sensible to try to get quality information when we're all sharing, and it adds context to know if you're reading something from a real photographer who's actually using these cameras, or if you're reading something from a Weekend Warrior. Whatever the case, solid communication starts with a proper introduction, a real name, and hopefully a website reference to see where a guy is coming from. This is simply one subjective opinion.
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brumbaer
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« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2006, 01:38:06 AM »
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Of course all IMHO and nothing personal.

I understand Mark's points and while I can understand them I think it's a wrong attitude.

For one no 35mm guy asks for the best 5D lens in the medium format forum and when he does he will be redirected, so that kind of noise can be ignored.

But a 35mm guy might get interested to upgrade to MF and will not get any information, because you lock him out, because he is not worthy.

He might be the next Cartier Bresson, but you lock him out.

Why is it bad to give information to a 30D user, but good to give information to an MF user ?

You lost the information on your CF card and can't recover it, but some bloke with a Coolpix had the same problem and found out if you shortcut pin 7 and 9 with a strip of wire and a ducttape the card is still broken, but you can at least recover you data. Your job is lost because you locked him out.

A guy is a PS wiz and found the ultimate shadow hilighter without any noise, because his Casio from 1996 has a real need for such a procedure, but you never learn from him, because you locked him out.

Why is a guy who bought a flashy website more worthy than the guy who takes much better pictures, but doesn't have a website.

Or why is a pro more worthy or better than an amateur.

There are so called pros and you look at their pictures and you wonder what the term pro might stand for.

I know from computer business that being paied for a job and called pro has nothing to do with quality of work (it's an indication at the best). And when I look at the photographs taken by pros and amateurs I'm very much inclined to say the same for photography.

Over the years I had the opportunity to look in differnt private fora and I'm not impressed by the knowledge in those fora.
The knowledge is firm, but it's not nearly as good as the myth about those fora makes you believe. Obviously it depends on the members and being private locks out people you shouldn't have and people you should have alike.

What impresses me in private fora is the way, how people interact with each other, but admittedly this part of the LL forums (I can't speak for the others) is pretty good in this respect as well.

Sometimes I get the feeling it is more like an old/young generation thing or a crafts guild thing.
We "old farts" don't want to accept that the "youngsters" might just know as much or probably more as we do about certain things, and we want to make sure that if they  don't already do it, they never will. At least not before they become "old farts" themselves.
Forgetting that innovation and knowledge can come from the outside and especially innovation often from the young

I agree that private fora have their use,
not as a place for the gathering of knowledge,
but they make a very good place as a Club of likely minded people or a crafts guild.

Regards
Stephan Hess (who isn't known by anyone) or
Brumbaer (who is known in certain circles at least)
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brumbaer
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« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2006, 01:50:34 AM »
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Sorry for a second reply so shortly,
but I didn't want to mix topics.

What hasn't been mentioned about "nicks" is that anonymity might be desired or does make sense.
I'm not talking about prosecution by an government because your image style is to westerly or easterly or southly or northly. More mundane things. Like somebody working for a company in the camera business, but not allowed to or not willing to post as a company representative. He just wants to post as a hobbyist. But no matter what preamble he uses, it will  always be Mr. Nikon said or somebody close to Leaf hinted and so on.

Of course he can give a fake name, but what sense do names make when they are fake.

A list of gear doesn't help, because we all know it's the technique not the size.

So there is the website as legitimation. Which doesn't really help, because some people don't have any and the ability to create a website and to be able to convert an image so it looks good in a browser doesn't say anything about his photgraphic expertise, which may be creating stunning prints.

mfg
SH (my usual way to sign e-mails to people I regulary exchange e-mails with) aka
Stephan Hess aka
Brumbaer
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yaya
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« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2006, 02:18:29 AM »
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If I, as a representative of a company, enter a conversation about technical matters related to the product. I would like to have SOME information about the other side.

If a prospect rings me up to ask for details, they will ALWAYS give me some details, names, background etc. This will help me give a focused answer and detail.

If it's all public and there are numerous "listeners" who don't contribute to the coversation, that's fine. But anyone entering the conversation, to gain minimum credibility, has to find a way to show where his/ her words come from.

I cannot take someone seriously if I don't know who he/ she is. One doesn't need to be a working pro (what's a working pro anyway?) to gain credibility.

My 2 worth

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Kumar
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« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2006, 03:03:35 AM »
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Of course all IMHO and nothing personal.

I understand Mark's points and while I can understand them I think it's a wrong attitude.

Why is a guy who bought a flashy website more worthy than the guy who takes much better pictures, but doesn't have a website.

Or why is a pro more worthy or better than an amateur.

What impresses me in private fora is the way, how people interact with each other, but admittedly this part of the LL forums (I can't speak for the others) is pretty good in this respect as well.

I agree that private fora have their use,
not as a place for the gathering of knowledge,
but they make a very good place as a Club of likely minded people or a crafts guild.

Regards
Stephan Hess (who isn't known by anyone) or
Brumbaer (who is known in certain circles at least)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80615\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


In the old RG forum, Mark Tucker, James Russell, Tim Griffith, all made valuable contributions. All of us benefited, as I'm sure they too did. That forum collapsed for various reasons, but not because it was a public forum. I did not see anyone advocating a private forum at that time. Michael has given us a place where some  talk, and some like me listen.

And Brumbaer's Tools sounds better than Hess' Tools  

Kumar (no website as yet)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 03:23:54 AM by Kumar » Logged

Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2006, 03:05:12 AM »
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Its a funny old world

There probably is NO correct answer

My take is I have had a H1 and back for over a year, and a proback before that

I put a lot of effort into making theses purchases with much guidance from RG - for some bizzare reason I am happy to share these experiences

However - here - I make posts that I feel I give hard earned information away - posts that (mirror slap) reflect Mr Tuckers early posts

But people dont seem to listen or at least dont acknowledge - very frustrating

I am posting as MF OWNER WITH INFORMATION FOR POTELNTIAL BUYERS

------------

At RG I used to read the tribulations of HIGH END COMMERCIAL PHOTOGRAPHERS with awe

Because I am a WANNABE HIGH END SHOOTER

These guys moved my photography forward - mainly through me checking out thier websites

With the privatisation I feel I have been robbed of a resource whether this is on purpose (they dont want to share hard won information) or just bad luck I dont know

--------------

As quite an experienced web programmer (TECH HEAD) on occasion I felt I could give the HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS some insite on occasion

---------------

Some of the stuff on this site is total chaff but then BRUMBAER, someone with no impressive web presence, (TECH HEAD)  pops up with a unique bit of software for free - WOW!

------------------

So what we have is a community of

HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS
MF OWNERS WITH INFORMATION FOR POTELNTIAL BUYERS
MF CONSIDERERS
TECH HEADS

there are also
WEEKEND WARRIORS, GOOGLE RUMOUR MONGERERS, and SPAMMERS that just seem to mess things up

-----------------------

It is shame that the HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS have left the party because people kept breaking thier toys and with out heavy (but correct) moderation thier toys will keep getting broken

Maybe the HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS  would consider opening their forum in a read only manner - and on occasion post here to MF CONSIDERERS this is the price they should consider paying in exchange for occasional gems from TECH HEADs etc

I bet a pile of HIGH END COMMERCIAL SHOOTERS grabbed mr BRUMBAERs sofware - with no thanks

The answer is probably a board that is heavily moderated and maybe has a private area

SHOOTING HIGH END
TIPS FROM THE TOP - HELP PLEASE
CONSIDERING MF -  HELP PLEASE
TECHNICAL NIGHTMARES - HELP PLEASE

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2006, 03:07:15 AM »
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Kumar another thing RG had was only quoting minimal bits of other people posts.!!
LOL

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2006, 03:24:36 AM »
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Kumar another thing RG had was only quoting minimal bits of other people posts.!!
LOL

SMM
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Sam,

Point taken!

Kumar
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eronald
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« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2006, 04:00:48 AM »
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Actually, I feel we have it pretty good here:
- a lot of good shooters.
- a lot of very competent tech-heads who know their way around the most complex software.
- mostly everyone is polite most of the time.

I suggest we go back to business as usual, talking about photo experiences,  helping our friends solve problems. I needed some sample files, I got them fast via contacts on this forum (Thank you Tim!).

This place works as it is. Let's use it and make it even better.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2006, 04:47:49 AM »
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This place works as it is. Let's use it and make it even better.

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for you maybe (an MF CONSIDERER??) but less so for me without the TOP LINE COMMERCIAL GUYS

Some of us  need them and on occaision they need us

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2006, 06:20:10 AM »
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for you maybe (an MF CONSIDERER??) but less so for me without the TOP LINE COMMERCIAL GUYS

Some of us  need them and on occaision they need us
S
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What's stopping you from posting your issues and reflections and seeing who responds ?

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2006, 08:49:15 AM »
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Regardless of your situation - Casio user or MF user - revealing who you are, what you look like even, enhances the forum. I feel anonymity encourages less than candid communication. It's a little harder to be a dork when you're looking at the face of Edmund Ronald. He's a guy that you're sharing opinions with, that you might share a brew with even, if you happened to be in the right place at the right time.

But an anonymous poster, you don't kow who he is, and he may say something that you don't take quite the right way, and then your emotion gets a little skewed, egged on by the possibility he may just be a twit Casio user somewhere!  

I do think that it's a great thing when everyone on this forum knows everyone else's name, has even seen some of the great (and not so great   ) work on their sites, seen their faces and developed a real sense of community. Being a public forum, it's a very loose sort of community, but a community of "mostly" like-minded members, just the same. I've been a contributor to public and to private forums, and I can tell you most definitely, that when contributor identity is shared, it becomes a much more interesting place.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Steve Hendrix
ronno
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« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2006, 09:09:59 AM »
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So perhaps we can agree that in order to be taken seriously on this MF fuorum, everyone should should use their real names  (at least in the signature, as I think it's impossible to change one's screenn make without making anohter acount.)
And when new users come into the MF area, we may gently let them know that they should use their real name and URL if they want serious answers to questions.

And perhaps we cound recommend that Michael compel users of this forum to step out of the shadows.

What say?

-ron
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 09:24:41 AM by ronno » Logged
SeanBK
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« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2006, 09:15:36 AM »
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I am a MF & Nikon D2x user also old RG MF forum user. MF being a such a small community, if one has a problem with their product & service is not up to expectations, than for me it would be a little difficult to share the experience, in case one has to work with his/her rep again. As all statement do stay in this cyberspace forever. May be it is just my own uncomfortable experience is talking & is not generally applicable. But it is always nice to see MarkTucker's & James Russel's posts. I do hope you post often here.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 09:18:23 AM by SeanBK » Logged
bcroslin
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« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2006, 10:00:59 AM »
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I hate to say it but I think what's missing from this board is a light amount of moderation. The moderation on the RG boards was ridiculous and extreme but it did occasionally serve a purpose to keep the noise down to a minimum. This board is suddenly getting a huge number of traffic and with that we're starting to see a number of lousy posts. The week of Photokina saw no less than 5 or 6 different posts on the H3 discussing the EXACT same thing. In the last few days there was a post on the "rumor" of a Canon medium format camera that was just dumb and yet people actually replied to it! And now we're starting to see individual for sale posts which from my reading of what Michael wrote on the subject wasn't what he intended.

I'm here to ask questions and share my limited knowledge of MFD. I've asked a few questions recently that I'm sure others have dealt with and yet received one or two replies. The medium format back poll Edmund created gives a pretty good idea of how many users here are shooting with MFD - 69. I would think the level of discourse would be just a little higher and more professional if there's truly that many people shooting MFD here. The higher the quality of the conversation the better and more knowledgeable the photographers it will attract. If the only way to do that is to require registration to view the forum I'm all for it.

I second Ron's suggestion about "gently" reminding folks to use their real names if they want to be taken seriously.
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« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2006, 10:08:50 AM »
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Perhaps I'm a bit different than those here.

In the 80's I was shooting in a studio with 5,000 sq/ft of finished space, using Sinar, Hasselblad, Nikon, and Profoto. The computer was a Kaypro. Shooting advertising. Decided to shoot only location when I moved to Arizona in the 90's. Had an accident and back surgery in less than a year. The ability to stay on a 'professional' schedule disappeared.

Now I work out of my house using a Contax system with a P45, a Canon system, numerous Apple computers with extra external drives on a calibrated system using Imageprint to an Epson 4800. Still use Profoto and Sinar.

Not disclosed for pecking order, just context.

Today I shoot a few assignments and the rest of the time I shoot whatever projects interest me. As I am no longer dependant on shooting as a source of income I suppose I am no longer considered a "shooter" by some, and yet no matter what I am photographing I bring to it the same enthusiasm and professionalism that I had before.  

Making the switch to high-end digital was possible only because of the RG forum and seeing what experiences people were kind enough to share.  Esoteric expensive equipment, some of which I discovered would work for me and some wouldn't. I posted questions only when I couldn't find the answer elsewhere and posted answers when I had information that worked for me. Still do.

So I'm not sure whether I qualify under Mark Tucker's guidelines. Or other people who would benefit from his experience, or James' or Tim's.  But the nice thing about the system is that you only have to read and respond to the messages and threads you want to, so there is leeway built in.  (I would totally understand it if Mark Tucker wanted to create a private forum for his stories, because I would be sorely tempted to pay just to read the Tucker Chronicles again!)

Since I see any worthwhile forum somewhat analgous to sitting around a table having a beer with friends I've always signed my name to the bottom of posts since 1994.  I like to see a name somewhere so I know who I'm talking to.  For me pseudonyms recall that line in the Wizard of OZ: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

Mark Tuttle
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Mark Tuttle
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mkravit
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« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2006, 10:27:29 AM »
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A lot of good points, but here is the bottom line.....

Without your real name some folks continue to be nasy and rude. With your real name you are more likely to take responsibility for what you say and do.

What is the issue about underground forums?
Someone please clue me in?

Private forums and mailing lists are pretty typical in the professional arena for obvious reasons. I know many people who subscribe to forums that are run by trade organizations and wish not to open them up to the spamming and malicious nonsense that plagues open forum settings.

I have to agree that everyone should be required to identify who they are, inquiring minds want to know.
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« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2006, 12:09:58 PM »
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I agree like most other people that we should sign using our real names and give our web addresses. If we did, then maybe there wouldn't be the nastiness that has surfaced on this forum just recently. The nastiness on the old RG forum mainly came from the moderators in my opinion. I don't particularly like closed private forums either because I reckon it smacks of elitism.

I'll look at anybody's work amateur or professional if I feel I can learn from it. The main criteria is it has to be good. I've known many an amateur produce superb work that would put a few pros to shame. Same for advice too, I'll listen to all. After twenty odd years as a pro in this business I find the learning curve gets steeper and steeper with the new technology. Exciting times indeed, so I better keep looking and listening. If I can pass on any help along the way that's just great too. I think this forum is shaping up in a real nice way and for me it is now beginning to be a daily must read just like the RG forum was before it imploded.

Barrie Watts

www.barriewatts.co.uk
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