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Author Topic: New HP Z2100 and Z3100 printers  (Read 35649 times)
chilehead
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« on: September 26, 2006, 07:37:09 AM »
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Way to go Michael!  You've one-upped everyone with your video report!

http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/hp-visit.shtml

Thanks for giving us an insider's view.

(So I guess Michael will be selling a few more of his printers, eh?)

-Mark
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 07:45:35 AM by chilehead » Logged
neil snape
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2006, 08:03:37 AM »
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Quote
Way to go Michael!  You've one-upped everyone with your video report!

http://luminous-landscape.com/photokina/hp-visit.shtml

Thanks for giving us an insider's view.

(So I guess Michael will be selling a few more of his printers, eh?)

-Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77785\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes great. Also a chance to see who Michael is!
Which I knew how to make great films and post them !
So now that the news is out, ask away with any questions you have.
I've got one and I'm only beginning to explore it's potential. One thing is sure , our insistance that colour management be made easy is truly met. I have made a few hand done profiles and see that the days are numbered as it is so sweet just to press Intstall and profile , walk away, and it's done with zero user intervention.  Bravo HP!
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ronno
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2006, 10:33:44 AM »
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These printers look great, HOWEVER, I was just told by someone at  HP that the STREET price for the 24" Z2100 is $3395 and the Z3100 is$4095!

A big jump in price from the $1300 DJ130.

here is the text:  

you: Also, do know about when they will be available to purchase?
Elizabeth: I just got the printer pricing.
Elizabeth: It is $3395.
Elizabeth: I do not have the ink cartridge price yet.
you: Is that list price or expected street price? Also, do you have a price for the Z2100?
Elizabeth: That is the X2100 24" price.
Elizabeth: That is the street price.
you: That is street price in US dollars, right?
Elizabeth: Correct.
you: Also, you said X2100; are you referring to the Z2100?
Elizabeth: yes i am.
Elizabeth: typo on my part
you: Do you have the price for the Z3100 yet?
Elizabeth: Sure, it is 4095 for the 24" model.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 10:39:11 AM by ronno » Logged
neil snape
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2006, 11:23:00 AM »
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They are not in the same league and thus cannot be compared. If you buy an i1 spectro, UV, and use the application with it that alone costs quite a bit.
These come with solid stands, a lot of high end technology with other optics, better feed roller stepper motors etc.

Time will tell if there will be a 17" and or 24" Photosmart that is or are an answer to Epsons announcement yesterday of a prosumer level 17".
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Tim Ernst
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2006, 01:39:07 PM »
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Neil:

Any way to load cut sheets other than ONE AT A TIME? That is a pain in the butt with the big Epsons, yet so great on the DJ 130. Also, is the roll-loading easy on these new printers as opposed to the DJ 130, which often takes me five minutes of tries every time? Looks like a giant step in the right direction for HP.

And, of course, how does the print quality stack up to the DJ130?

Thanks for all of your great info...

Tim Ernst in Arkansas
www.Cloudland.net
« Last Edit: September 26, 2006, 01:39:46 PM by Tim Ernst » Logged
elauq
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2006, 03:31:31 PM »
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Neil:

What's your impression of the resolution of this new 12-ink printer compared with the latest Canon printers?  You'd probably need a loupe to tell the difference between printers.  How fine a droplet does HP put down?  Natural looking screening algorthims used?
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neil snape
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 03:41:31 PM »
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Neil:

Any way to load cut sheets other than ONE AT A TIME? That is a pain in the butt with the big Epsons, yet so great on the DJ 130. Also, is the roll-loading easy on these new printers as opposed to the DJ 130, which often takes me five minutes of tries every time? Looks like a giant step in the right direction for HP.

And, of course, how does the print quality stack up to the DJ130?

Thanks for all of your great info...

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good questions.
I do know why they didn't put a tray in and it didn't make me happy. No, it's manual sheet fed or roll. Luckily for sheets the 9180 takes care of the A3+ proofing side for most users which frees up the 24, 44" printers and beyond to do what they are made for.
The way it works is you push the media in, it grabs it , sends it forward (sheet or roll) then measures it up and checks front to back alignment. If it's not square it beeps then you simply open up the huge slot machine lever and set it to a dotted line. Takes two seconds and is done.
Behind the scene is a limited motor assisted auto align which is why you'd have to be way out before it couldn't set it right.
A bit archaic but practical and effortless. The 130 is very finicky for those who don't have the feel for when it's right. This printer absolutely anyone can load , and do so quickly.
Print quality isn't yet locked down. I'm doing my best to make sure certain things are redone before the software/firmware are frozen.
The Gloss Enhancer is really beautiful. Never seen better, it would be hard to get better than this. Looking at an Epson 7800 print and the GE Z3100 of my image on glossy shows you why it changes everything. Even though people feel the K3 is acceptable for glossy , it is the HP that makes the Epson look wrong in comparison.
Color gamut is also a thing linked to software in progress.
It is larger than K3 as expected in most areas, only in some areas compared to Canon, but the shock is Epson still has both beat in Chroma depth. The profiles on Glossy and satin media are excellent so if you have a Bill Atkinson profile print of an average scene, same for a Canon , same for HP you wouldn't tell them apart for most images as far as colour goes. What I do like about HP and Epson is the prints have a photographic look, advantage going to HP in this way. Epson has such a fin pitch that it can look quite plastic as it is sometimes too fine to be photographic in an analogue way.
The switching between B&W, matte, colour is flawless and efficient.
The beauty pictures are the best in their class with GE. Matte B&W is nice but there are some things to make it better which is certainly why I'm here to help make things meet.
For proofing and illustration it is a wonderful printer. It makes easy work of Pantones like it was a dye printer. I was just playing about in the B&W bi-toning or tri if you like as you have three controls highlight mid and shadow color wheels to tone and or split tone your prints . This is as little or as much tone as you like.
It is a sharp printer but not so sharp that you risk screening artifacts. So the 130 is smoother but the new HP's (especially the 9180) will produce a tad more detail.

Much more later....
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 06:16:54 PM »
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Good questions.
I do know why they didn't put a tray in and it didn't make me happy. No, it's manual sheet fed or roll. Luckily for sheets the 9180 takes care of the A3+ proofing side for most users which frees up the 24, 44" printers and beyond to do what they are made for.
The way it works is you push the media in, it grabs it , sends it forward (sheet or roll) then measures it up and checks front to back alignment. If it's not square it beeps then you simply open up the huge slot machine lever and set it to a dotted line. Takes two seconds and is done.
Behind the scene is a limited motor assisted auto align which is why you'd have to be way out before it couldn't set it right.
A bit archaic but practical and effortless. The 130 is very finicky for those who don't have the feel for when it's right. This printer absolutely anyone can load , and do so quickly.
Print quality isn't yet locked down. I'm doing my best to make sure certain things are redone before the software/firmware are frozen.
The Gloss Enhancer is really beautiful. Never seen better, it would be hard to get better than this. Looking at an Epson 7800 print and the GE Z3100 of my image on glossy shows you why it changes everything. Even though people feel the K3 is acceptable for glossy , it is the HP that makes the Epson look wrong in comparison.
Color gamut is also a thing linked to software in progress.
It is larger than K3 as expected in most areas, only in some areas compared to Canon, but the shock is Epson still has both beat in Chroma depth. The profiles on Glossy and satin media are excellent so if you have a Bill Atkinson profile print of an average scene, same for a Canon , same for HP you wouldn't tell them apart for most images as far as colour goes. What I do like about HP and Epson is the prints have a photographic look, advantage going to HP in this way. Epson has such a fin pitch that it can look quite plastic as it is sometimes too fine to be photographic in an analogue way.
The switching between B&W, matte, colour is flawless and efficient.
The beauty pictures are the best in their class with GE. Matte B&W is nice but there are some things to make it better which is certainly why I'm here to help make things meet.
For proofing and illustration it is a wonderful printer. It makes easy work of Pantones like it was a dye printer. I was just playing about in the B&W bi-toning or tri if you like as you have three controls highlight mid and shadow color wheels to tone and or split tone your prints . This is as little or as much tone as you like.
It is a sharp printer but not so sharp that you risk screening artifacts. So the 130 is smoother but the new HP's (especially the 9180) will produce a tad more detail.

Much more later....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 06:23:31 PM »
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Neil, I currently use the Canon 9900 which out puts a print very quickly.  Is the Z3100 24" product quick also?  Will you be able to utilize smaller rolls such as 8.5" and 13" sizes?  Are you impressed with it's ability to print subtle gradations?  Thanks, Jim Haefner
Quote
Good questions.
I do know why they didn't put a tray in and it didn't make me happy. No, it's manual sheet fed or roll. Luckily for sheets the 9180 takes care of the A3+ proofing side for most users which frees up the 24, 44" printers and beyond to do what they are made for.
The way it works is you push the media in, it grabs it , sends it forward (sheet or roll) then measures it up and checks front to back alignment. If it's not square it beeps then you simply open up the huge slot machine lever and set it to a dotted line. Takes two seconds and is done.
Behind the scene is a limited motor assisted auto align which is why you'd have to be way out before it couldn't set it right.
A bit archaic but practical and effortless. The 130 is very finicky for those who don't have the feel for when it's right. This printer absolutely anyone can load , and do so quickly.
Print quality isn't yet locked down. I'm doing my best to make sure certain things are redone before the software/firmware are frozen.
The Gloss Enhancer is really beautiful. Never seen better, it would be hard to get better than this. Looking at an Epson 7800 print and the GE Z3100 of my image on glossy shows you why it changes everything. Even though people feel the K3 is acceptable for glossy , it is the HP that makes the Epson look wrong in comparison.
Color gamut is also a thing linked to software in progress.
It is larger than K3 as expected in most areas, only in some areas compared to Canon, but the shock is Epson still has both beat in Chroma depth. The profiles on Glossy and satin media are excellent so if you have a Bill Atkinson profile print of an average scene, same for a Canon , same for HP you wouldn't tell them apart for most images as far as colour goes. What I do like about HP and Epson is the prints have a photographic look, advantage going to HP in this way. Epson has such a fin pitch that it can look quite plastic as it is sometimes too fine to be photographic in an analogue way.
The switching between B&W, matte, colour is flawless and efficient.
The beauty pictures are the best in their class with GE. Matte B&W is nice but there are some things to make it better which is certainly why I'm here to help make things meet.
For proofing and illustration it is a wonderful printer. It makes easy work of Pantones like it was a dye printer. I was just playing about in the B&W bi-toning or tri if you like as you have three controls highlight mid and shadow color wheels to tone and or split tone your prints . This is as little or as much tone as you like.
It is a sharp printer but not so sharp that you risk screening artifacts. So the 130 is smoother but the new HP's (especially the 9180) will produce a tad more detail.

Much more later....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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ericaro
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2006, 06:55:29 PM »
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Neil
        I understand that  gloss diff and bronzing are under control with the Z printers but what about metamerism? Did you see any?
                                      Louis Bouillon
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andythom68
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2006, 09:28:47 AM »
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These printers look great, HOWEVER, I was just told by someone at  HP that the STREET price for the 24" Z2100 is $3395 and the Z3100 is$4095!

A big jump in price from the $1300 DJ130.

here is the text: 

you: Also, do know about when they will be available to purchase?
Elizabeth: I just got the printer pricing.
Elizabeth: It is $3395.
Elizabeth: I do not have the ink cartridge price yet.
you: Is that list price or expected street price? Also, do you have a price for the Z2100?
Elizabeth: That is the X2100 24" price.
Elizabeth: That is the street price.
you: That is street price in US dollars, right?
Elizabeth: Correct.
you: Also, you said X2100; are you referring to the Z2100?
Elizabeth: yes i am.
Elizabeth: typo on my part
you: Do you have the price for the Z3100 yet?
Elizabeth: Sure, it is 4095 for the 24" model.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Are there prices for the 44inch versions?
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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2006, 10:34:55 AM »
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~deleted~

Nill
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www.toulme.net
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 11:18:39 AM by Nill Toulme » Logged
ronno
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2006, 11:17:35 AM »
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Are there prices for the 44inch versions?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=77979\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Those prices are for the 24" models. I did not inquire about the larger ones.
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ronno
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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2006, 04:17:01 PM »
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One of the things I'd love to know about is whether we can expect the heads to clog less often than, say, the epson 7800. One reason I have been hesitant to get that printer is that the thing seems to always needs to be cleaned. And even at that the cleanings do not always work, and the process needs to be repeated.

Also, which printer do you have Neil, the 2100 or the 3100? Thanks.
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pobrien3
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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2006, 10:30:40 PM »
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THIS looks like what I've been waiting for!  Before I write a cheque though I'd like to see the printer in action and put some of my own images through it, so I'll be hounding the Hong Kong HP distributor immediately.

I have never felt the 'pro' Epsons to be acceptable for glossy, and that includes the K3 printers.  I always thought the glossing cartridge to be a great idea (so many people manually spray their prints - better if the printer does it!) and am astonished that Epson stopped using it at the R1800 - bravo HP!

The inclusion of the photospectrometer though, to me, is a double-edged thing.  Normally I would not have been in the market for such a device, as I would have profiles made by professionals as and when I need them.  I don't expect to be profiling on a regular basis, so the addition of this to the cost might be a negative.  That said though, if the images it produces and the ease of use are up to par, I'll get the printer.

May I ask, Neil - which model / size do you have?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 10:36:47 PM by pobrien3 » Logged
Middleman
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2006, 05:17:25 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 11:54:58 AM by Middleman » Logged
pobrien3
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« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2006, 06:27:22 AM »
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...For starters they have spent 5 years developing the unit to a tune of $3.5 billion US investment...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm still reading and digesting the rest of your post, but this seems like a major investment for which I can't easily see the economics.  Assuming HP's margin is 50%, and allowing for just 25% for the retailer, then they'll need to sell almost two and a half million units just to recover R&D.

Given the expected lifecycle of such products of approximately 2-3 years, especially as they could expect Canon and Epson to respond quickly, is the market big enough to warrant such an investment?

I read somewhere that the total expected volume of DSLR sales by 2008 will be 8 million.  Are we saying that over a quarter of DSLR buyers will be in this market??
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 07:03:35 AM by pobrien3 » Logged
pobrien3
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2006, 06:52:21 AM »
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...And this is where the most interesting part begins. We've known for some time now that on the Epsons when it comes printing areas of highlights or white in the print, we get this glare effect on the print. Well not any longer on the HP. To combat this issue, the unit comes with a 'clear ink'. This is used on areas of white in the print especially on glossy papers, to reduce the effects of this issue.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Assuming by 'this glare effect' you're referring to gloss differential, are you suggesting that the 'clear ink' is only used on highlights and whites in the image?  Unless this is extremely cleverly done (as ink isn't laid down in a binary fashion), I can see this being potentially problematic.  Isn't the gloss being laid uniformly across the image?

Forgive me as we haven't got to know you yet - what is your background that gave you early access to HP development?

Peter
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Middleman
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2006, 07:38:02 AM »
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« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 11:56:09 AM by Middleman » Logged
chilehead
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2006, 07:59:23 AM »
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Re: Ink recycling.  It sounds as if these printers must use some sort of "intermediate" tank between the cartridge and the printhead to hold the ink.

I believe this system has been used on HP printers before this--but is it reliable?

-Mark
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