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Author Topic: I am confused??OPEN DISSUSION  (Read 5028 times)
mcfoto
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« on: September 28, 2006, 08:13:01 AM »
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Hi
I am confused!!! Been away for a few days. So Leaf is coming out with a Rolie Sinar camera? Hasselblad announces another body H3D and will not accept any other D backs except for their own. ( That seems to be a stupid move! ). Phase & Mamiya merger, is this true? You know one thing about phase they have got that Kodak chip working well especially with their long exposures!!!! Mamiya has the 28mm not really a surprise as they have been working on this for a few years. The 75-150 Zoom that is cool very nice range. If they release the ZD back with the Phase sofware at around $8000.00 USD this back will sell. So it looks like that only Mamiya & Sinar Hy6 cameras will accept other digital backs. Hasselblad is going on their own now with the H3D camera?Huh Next will the MAC group still sell Mamiya or will they switch to Sinar or sell both. The Sinar having f stops on the lenses too me is old school. Hey this is big news please add your comments!!!!
Thanks Denis
ps love my Quato/IPF 5000 combo
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Denis Montalbetti
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marcwilson
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2006, 08:24:16 AM »
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no one has really said much about the mamiya stuff..has anyone actually seen it and spoken to anyone about it...when, prices etc?

the rollei/leaf/sinar venture looks good but again we know nothing about when and how much etc.

the HD3 looks good in itself but seems to be a closed system that does not appeal to many.
Its new software that is correcting lens issues in camera and the 28mm is there and it is all apparaently out now but no prices as of yet.


No new shift options for any mf slr cameras as of yet but an update to the horseman swd to allow more options in tems of backs (and movements) but for full movements its continue with stick your back on the view camera for now..no problems there.

so there certainly do seem to be lots of new possibilities out there which is great in itself but I think we are all awaiting more concrete news on features, price, availability on the mamiya, leaf, sinar, etc front.

if you do not need af then the hasselblad v system may still be the best best after all the dust settles!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 08:25:05 AM by marcwilson » Logged

Frere Jacques
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2006, 08:57:57 AM »
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And don't forget this little tidbit abour Leica buying a controller interest in Sinar...

http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1159333503.html
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RobertJ
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2006, 01:09:44 PM »
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I'd imagine that if Hasselblad isn't stupid, they will put out an H3 camera body with an open interface for H-mount backs from Phase/Leaf/Sinar w/adapter/Hassy backs w/I-adapter.

If there is someone out there who really loves the H camera system, I'd advise you stay away from the H1D/H2D/H3D packages, and go for the standalone bodies that allow you to use any freakin' digital back you choose.

I think the main reason why Hasselblad particularly hypes the H3D package, is because, obviously, it's a complete HASSELBLAD system.  Why would they want to show off an H3 standalone body that doesn't have an integrated Hasselblad digital back?  That's not their attitude, especially at Photokina.
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pss
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2006, 01:33:42 PM »
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hasselblad is using the H platform (which has in many ways taken the market, for lack competition) to sell thier imacon backs, which haven't sold well at all...so the "full frame MF SLR" H3D is just another way to sell the backs...i just don't understand why they would make this a (almost) seperate platform from the H1/2...
i guess if you want ot use a leaf/phase/sinar back, you have to get the H1/2, otherwise get the H3? they really are the same camera anyway...
either way, rollei's idea of simply building the cameras for other people, be it sinar, leaf, maybe even phase is just great for the consumer...this and the fact that there will be a TON of lenses available for this system is just amazing....i can count more then 30..not adding all the older HFTs which will probably work as well, maybe only manual (metering and exposure)...
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2006, 01:39:43 PM »
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So it looks like that only Mamiya & Sinar Hy6 cameras will accept other digital backs.


And the Hasselblad V system, Alpa, the majority of large format cameras, Contax 645, and probably a few others I've forgotten.
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2006, 01:59:05 PM »
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Hasselblad announces another body H3D and will not accept any other D backs except for their own. ( That seems to be a stupid move! ).


Maybe, maybe not.

Integrating digital correction within the imaging chain can only be done if the lens, body, and back are all from a single source. The only other option is the DxO approach to corrections. And even DxO don't offer support for tilt and shift lenses because their software has no way of knowing what the lens movements were during the exposure. Maybe Hasselblad will be able to correct and enhance a future T&S lens?

So if digital correction really does improve image quality, and if Hasselblad are planning more lenses designed from scratch to be enhanced as part of the capture process, then it could be the shape of things to come.

But they're big "ifs", and so I'm veering towards sceptical. Chiefly because image chain correction has not been an approach exploited by 35mm DSLR's (apart maybe from Leica's M8 vignetting correction), and also my practical experience of DxO suggests it's more beneficial the lower the lens's inherent optical qualities. Which is why a big part of DxO's business comes from building this type of correction into camera phones. So maybe image chain correction makes some difference with the 28mm, but it'd need more than one or two lenses to really validate this approach.

One thing that does puzzle me is why the H3D still takes film backs? If Hasselblad really were nailing their colours to the digital mast they could have abandoned the need to offer viewfinder coverage for the 75mm 645 image circle; and offered a higher magnification finder just for the 61mm image circle of the 37mmx49mm sensor. It's anomalies like that which make me suspicious this a marketing ploy rather than a genuine photographic advantage.
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izaack
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2006, 02:47:05 PM »
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One thing that does puzzle me is why the H3D still takes film backs? If Hasselblad really were nailing their colours to the digital mast they could have abandoned the need to offer viewfinder coverage for the 75mm 645 image circle; and offered a higher magnification finder just for the 61mm image circle of the 37mmx49mm sensor.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, they did exactly that with a new viewfinder of (nominally) greater 3.1x magnification called the HVD90x. Unfortunate choice of moniker perhaps but it is in the catalogue and comes as standard for the H3D.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 02:50:33 PM by izaack » Logged
marcwilson
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2006, 02:54:39 PM »
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I think that people buying the 22mp version woudld still want the film option if doing work for very large prints..I know I would.
those getting the 39mp version can probably do without the film back option!
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Quentin
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2006, 07:01:20 PM »
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I think that people buying the 22mp version woudld still want the film option if doing work for very large prints..I know I would.
those getting the 39mp version can probably do without the film back option!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78179\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I can't think of any circumstances where a film back (remember its 645 film) would be a better option than a 22mp back, even using a drum scanner to scan, say, Provia.  My judgment is 22mp is about equivalent to 6x7 film, although Michael went on record in a earlier post as saying it was close to 4x5 film.

Quentin
« Last Edit: September 28, 2006, 07:03:55 PM by Quentin » Logged

Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
marc gerritsen
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2006, 07:40:51 PM »
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I don't understand all the hoha about hasselblad and their intergrated system.
When I finally got into MF digital I wanted an integrated system, I did not want to end up in a situation where if I had a problem I would be shuttled back and forward between lens, camera and back manufacturer. If I have a problem now I deal with one company.
Sofar I have not found any drawback from the H2D39. I have shot over 6000 frames in 3 months and sold about a 1000 photos to incredibly happy clients.
Of course I wish I could put the 28mm on the camera but sofar the 35mm has been sufficient for my interior work. Also I cannot put the back on a view camera, which I do not mind because I can imagine working with one of those dinasaurs would really slow me down.
cheers
Marc
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mcfoto
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2006, 08:36:06 PM »
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I don't understand all the hoha about hasselblad and their intergrated system.


Hi
I think it is very important to have choice especially at the price of these systems. Leaf has really stepped up to the plate. There speed is amazing. Phase One has great time exposures. If you are renting the digital backs it would be nice to have a choice to use Leaf, Phase, Sinar etc. With Hasselblads announcement only Rolie & Mamiya will deliver that choice. For example the Mamiya 28mm lens will work with film backs or the digital back of your choice. Seems to me that Leaf & Phase are going to be the market leaders now & they have been in this game the longest making digital backs. Regardless, at least a clearer picture is forming.

Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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marc gerritsen
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2006, 11:33:29 PM »
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It would be nice to have more choices, but I think Hasselblad has been in the game
for a few years now and if they make a desicion to go intergrated systems, I don't think
they do that on a whim.
Hasselblad has great time exposures as well, 32 seconds and no noice.
I am sure that Leaf or Phase could have the upper hand in the market. I have tested their backs and compared them with the hasselblad, but the differences is being played out in the last 5-10% and only if you are pixel peeping.
Sofar I have not seen any major differences in the results as was in the film days when you could clearly see which film was being used.
Look, I am definately biased here because I shoot with a H2D39, but I did my home work, before buying; tested all the backs, looked at the differences and decided I could not go wrong on Hass.

BTW; Dennis what are you shooting with?
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paul_jones
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2006, 12:11:35 AM »
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Quote
It would be nice to have more choices, but I think Hasselblad has been in the game
for a few years now and if they make a desicion to go intergrated systems, I don't think
they do that on a whim.
Hasselblad has great time exposures as well, 32 seconds and no noice.
I am sure that Leaf or Phase could have the upper hand in the market. I have tested their backs and compared them with the hasselblad, but the differences is being played out in the last 5-10% and only if you are pixel peeping.
Sofar I have not seen any major differences in the results as was in the film days when you could clearly see which film was being used.
Look, I am definately biased here because I shoot with a H2D39, but I did my home work, before buying; tested all the backs, looked at the differences and decided I could not go wrong on Hass.

BTW; Dennis what are you shooting with?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78233\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i dosnt matter how "good" the imacon back is, it is about how hasselblad is treating its existing user base.

there are a lot of people out there that have invested a large amount in the H1 system and are running phase and leaf, many have paid 30k+ on their backs. they are getting a slap in the face from hasselblad, and i know of quite a few that are very annoyed. they are being shut out of any future h1 improvements,  after buying this stuff new and only recently (the h1 has only been around for a few years).
in my experience, photographers will hate being told what products they have to use (its their nature), and will react to hasselblad closing its platform.
the H1 good camera, but i believe this will back fire and will cost hasselblad sales.

look at all the drooling over the Hy6! if this turns out to be as good as promised, watch out hasselblad.


paul
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mcfoto
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2006, 12:15:38 AM »
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BTW; Dennis what are you shooting with?

HI
 I shoot with the Mamiya 645 AFDII with the Aptus 22 back. For editorial I use the Mamiya ZD and also for stock.
Thanks Denis
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2006, 01:58:14 AM »
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"Hasselblad announces another body H3D and will not accept any other D backs except for their own"

I bet that..

-The blads will take other backs - the other back makers will just make them fit

Blad have been taling about intergrated solutions since Imacon days

-the 28 will work (vignetted) on H1/2s

Yes it may have distortions that are software corrected but someone will write a PS plugin that does a 90% as good job

-----------

The fact that you can upgrade your H1/2 to H3 means , most likely, that there are just software differences rather than major physical differences which could be a differnt rear mounting plate or a smaller mirror

Dont believe the hype from blad
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