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Author Topic: Alpa or Ebony for DB Interiors?  (Read 14888 times)
marcwilson
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2006, 12:02:57 PM »
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A question seperate to my post above.

I am possibly looking for one of these compact mf shift cameras (alpa, horseman, cambo etc) to go alongside an mf slr system...for its shift capabilities with mf quality as well as superwide lens with digital (24mm)

At times I may be using hired digital backs but will also at times use it with a film back when I need it's shift capabilities over the mf slr camera.

From experience does anyone know how these cameras perform with both digital and film backs.(the film back could be a typical 67 film back or could even be a hasselbald film back.

Thanks.

Marc
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2006, 12:37:24 PM »
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Gary, with your flexbody what lenses do you use to get 15mm of shift or rise?

The Flexbody is capable of 15mm of rise and 15mm of fall, plus 28 degrees of tilt each way (more than some view cameras I've used).  The Hasselblad Arcbody had nearly twice as much rise but no fall, for interiors I'll use fall nearly as much as rise, plus the Arcbody optics just aren't as good as the regular Hasselblad lenses.

Current 37mm x 49mm digital sensors are of course smaller than the 56mm x 56mm film dimensions that Hasselblad lenses are designed for (61mm image circles versus 80mm) so there's quite a bit of shifting capability built into every Hasselblad lens. Plus some lenses just happen to have bigger image circles than the 80mm minimum.

Hasselblad gave some guidelines for shift capabilities with a 40mm x 50mm mask they supplied with each Flexbody, which is of course similar to digital sensor dimensions. Using the frame Hasselblad say the 40mm can be shifted 7mm, the 50mm can be shifted 12mm, and the 60mm and longer lenses can all be shifted by the full 15mm.

I find these are a bit too cautious with the P25, I get at least 12mm of shift with the 40mm IF (however Hasselblad's measurements were with the earlier 40mm lens) and the full 15mm with all other lenses. If you're interested in a particular lens that I happen to have I can set up some shots at different levels of rise and you can see if they meet your requirements. For practical purposes I usually work on the assumption that even though I'd like 50% of the long dimension in shift capability, in reality I rarely use more than 30%, so the Flexbody works fine in this respect.

I don't want to fall into the trap of becoming tediously evangelical about kit I happen to use, so let me also point out that there's no side shift or side tilt capability with the Flexbody. And unlike with a T&S lens you have to use a focusing screen and then replace it with the digital back for each shot, so fast it ain't.
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marcwilson
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2006, 01:00:10 PM »
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Thanks for the very detailed information Gary.
The slowness of the flexbody is no problem to me..i am used to shooting with view cameras and my subjects are never going anywhere.

I am looking for a simple shift option to have with a mf slr kit for the times I can / do not have full view camera with me and have not been able to get a horseman / cambo system etc for wider shifts.

For the shift option I am looking for primarily film (so don't worry about the tests with the db..but thanks for the kind offer) )as well as digital backs so will need a set up that allows for good shift with full 66 film back so is it does look like the 50 or 60mm lens for that.

I will look into / ask hasselblad about shift limits with various lenses with their film backs on the flexbody and then see how it stacks up against the pcmutar with 40mm in terms of movement / lens focal length...and then choose.

Thanks again.
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Gary Ferguson
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2006, 02:02:46 PM »
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Marc, with the 6x6 film back the Flexbody has more limited shift capabilities, 0 with the 40mm, 5mm with the 50mm, 10mm with both the 60mm and 80mm, and 14mm with the 100mm and longer. If you knew you were cropping down to 645 you'd get a useful additional margin.
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pixpop
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2006, 02:04:25 PM »
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I got my Alpa and all my lenses (Schneider 24, 35, 60) and accessories from Badger. I recommend them very highly over the other (limited) options. Their prices are the best, and they are very responsive to support questions. But then again, I'd much rather do business with a reputable online company than a brick-and-mortar dealer.
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tom_l
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2006, 03:59:27 PM »
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I just came back from cologne after a very interesting day at the photokina.
I'm also looking for a wide angle possibility for my Hassy-V mount Phase back.
I had a look at the usual suspect, and discovered some others too, i personally did not know of yet:

-ALPA: they showed their new XY camera, shifts in both directions, huge!, and probably more expensive then their other modells.

-Horseman: a new version of their camera is available as mentioned in another tread yesterday, it takes a mounts, the shifts are not geared, probably less expensive then the other competitors.

-Cambo: maybe my choice, geared shifts, great feeling, don't know if there's the possibility to mount film backs (for holiday snapshots, but i don't know if i should bother;-) ) A small version, without shifts is also released!

-Gilde 6x17: what a great camera, huge machine, build like a tank, beside of the film back possibility, they showed a P45 mounted on a slider that looked very much like my phaseone flexadaptor(same color dots). Yes, you can stitch with your C1 software. Prices probably in the ALPA galaxy;-)

-Arca-Swiss: two new cams, still prototypes, first the R m3d,then the R L3d, can't remember the difference.Looks ver much like the Cambo.
Oh yes, like the Gilde, you can tilt the lens a few mm!

-Fotoman: a new contender? Looks like a Horseman, with DIY Helical Focus Mounts you fix betwenn body and lens. No details, but got the informations that a second, similar body will follow later too.

Amazing stuff, I hope we will learn a bit more soon about these new cntenders
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JBM
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2006, 06:30:09 PM »
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Thanks for the recap tom_l.
Did Fotoman adapt its gear for a digital back? If so that would certainly be worth investigating, given that their lens compatability includes Schneider, Fuji, Nikon and Rodenstock.


Alpa 12 XY, with vertical shift 70 mm (+45/-25 mm) and horizontal shift 50 mm (r/l 25 mm) USD $6,444.00 sans finder.

JBM
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tom_l
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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2006, 03:57:52 AM »
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Hi JBM,
that's what the guys at the small Photoman stand told me, no information available yet, not even on their website, it seems to be a kind of DIY thing. they claim to have a tolerance of 1mm when mounting your lens. Hmm, the nice guy at Gilde told me he would be able to produce a slider coming with the camera that allows 1/100 mm tolerance.
But i think these 2 cameras will be at the opposite end of the market anyway.

ALPA price, ehh, yes, thank you!;-)

Are there other contenders I forgot to mention?

Tom-
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marcwilson
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2006, 12:25:31 PM »
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some info here on the fotoman shift option etc..not sure if this is new to their website.

I will try and find out also if either there 54 or 612 cameras can take any lenses under 30mm and also take film and digital backs.

http://www.fotomancamera.com/accessories_list.asp#252
« Last Edit: October 01, 2006, 12:42:35 PM by marcwilson » Logged

benedmonson
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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2006, 09:50:47 PM »
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Well after many great reply's I think I'm going for in the near future the Cambo Wide DS with the 24, 38 and 47 lens. As for the digital back option, I'm looking at the Leaf Valeo 22wi when they are available refurbished, or another refurbished full frame 22 digital back. I think for what i do, 22 megs is enough for the next 2 years.
If not for this posting I would've not known about the Cambo Wide DS camera, I think from what I've seen it is fantastic!!!
As for trying the stitching with the 5D, I've canned it and am going back to 4x5  witht the Ebony for my interior shoots this week.
thanks for all the reply's and I look forward to contributing good threads to this forum in the near future.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2006, 12:19:52 AM »
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Well after many great reply's I think I'm going for in the near future the Cambo [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think Cambo is a great looking system

Thoughts..

The 24 has a tiny image circle allowing minimal rise or fall - maybe youd be better to go with the 28

The lack of sideways movements mean you cannot stitch restricting you 'only' 22mp

The (new) horseman swd2 allows this [a href=\"http://www.horsemanusa.com/press/PR06092601.pdf]http://www.horsemanusa.com/press/PR06092601.pdf[/url]

You will be throwing away the image circle of the 47 - two upright 47 images stuck together create a really big file with a really nice perspective you could even get a bit of extra width from the 28 if/when horseman make it available
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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ericstaud
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« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2006, 01:46:31 AM »
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Just FYI.. Alpa has also added the Rodenstock HR lenses to it's line up.
28, 35, 60, 100.

Their price list is on this page...
http://www.alpa.ch/photokina2006/
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benedmonson
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« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2006, 11:59:42 AM »
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I think Cambo is a great looking system

Thoughts..

The 24 has a tiny image circle allowing minimal rise or fall - maybe youd be better to go with the 28

The lack of sideways movements mean you cannot stitch restricting you 'only' 22mp

The (new) horseman swd2 allows this http://www.horsemanusa.com/press/PR06092601.pdf

You will be throwing away the image circle of the 47 - two upright 47 images stuck together create a really big file with a really nice perspective you could even get a bit of extra width from the 28 if/when horseman make it available
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78710\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Morgan,
Thanks for your thoughts, but unless I'm reading the material wrong the Cambo Wide DS has:
20mm horizontal left
20mm horizontal right
40mm vertical upward
20mm vertical downward
This was taken from the cambo website. this is what excites me so much about the system, unlike the Alpa SWA12 only has vertical shift. I acturally just read an article by an achitectural photographer who loves the ease in which he stitches with the Cambo Wide DS!

The other thing that I like over the Horseman SWD is that it has no geared movements. the Cambo Wide DS is all geared like the Alpa, as you know this makes for much more precise movements when stitching.
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tom_l
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« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2006, 01:03:32 PM »
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Morgan,
Thanks for your thoughts, but unless I'm reading the material wrong the Cambo Wide DS has:
20mm horizontal left
20mm horizontal right
40mm vertical upward
20mm vertical downward
This was taken from the cambo website. this is what excites me so much about the system, unlike the Alpa SWA12 only has vertical shift. I acturally just read an article by an achitectural photographer who loves the ease in which he stitches with the Cambo Wide DS!

The other thing that I like over the Horseman SWD is that it has no geared movements. the Cambo Wide DS is all geared like the Alpa, as you know this makes for much more precise movements when stitching.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Cambo can shift in both direction, yes. Seems my favourite existing system, still handy like the Horseman, but geared like an ALPA.
But I will wait until the ARCA comes out in a few months. The Arca will have a tilt option too. Someone mentioned on a french forum that Arca will finally realease a website soon. It's a shame small companies can't or don't want to invest a few thousand bucks in a website.

tom-
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2006, 02:11:40 PM »
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unless I'm reading the material wrong the Cambo Wide DS has:
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I MUST be reading the material wrong - SORRY

I thought that side shifting was by flipping it on its side (hence loosing up/down)


I didnt think it did both - AT the same time - if it does that makes it sound even cooler !

The lense must stay still and the back move for a proper stitch - if it does this great ...
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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marcwilson
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« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2006, 04:29:14 PM »
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The cambo wide ds seems to take both film and digital backs and lenses from 24mm upwards.

Does anyone know if the slightly older cambo wide (non ds version) can take the same back and lens options?
I have emailled cambo but gotten no response.

Thanks.
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marcwilson
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« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2006, 05:05:24 AM »
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from fotoman camera..could be very interesting...

"Our most ambitious product to date, the "D-max" will accept mechanical roll film backs for 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x8, 6x9 and 6x12 formats, as well as many medium format digital backs. Offering 25mm of movement in all 4 directions, the D-max will accept standard large format and digital optimized lenses from 24mm thru 400mm."

like the alpa but more affordable.
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mkravit
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« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2006, 06:59:15 PM »
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I also shoot an Alpa 12 SWA with 24 and 35mm digitars. I am still waiting for the 47 as Schneider is way behind in production. The Aptus 75 is a wonderful back except for the centerfold issue as Eric mentions but I am confident that Leaf will find a viable solution.

The problem with an Arca 69 is that with wide angle lenses even the slightest movement will throw the back out of focus. The geared adjustments really are not fine enough for critical focus and movements. The Apla or Cambowide use helical focus mount lenses which make focusing easy and quick. Also, the 24 can not be focused at infinit oin an Arca 69 and the 35 barely gets to infinity.

Solutions such as the Flexbody are also quite nice.

Good luck in your quest. If you are considering laying out $30K for a digital back another $15K for a good camera solution is the only way to go.

BTW, I see no distortion in the Schenider Digitar 24 and 35 lenses.
Fall off is easily fixed in either LC10 or Raw Developer but In all honesty I have to say that LC10 is not all that slick.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 07:00:49 PM by mkravit » Logged
Khun_K
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2006, 11:38:24 AM »
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I have an Alpa 12SWA, 24mm, 35mm, 47mm, and 60mm lenses.  I use it with an Aptus 75.  The combination is great.  I bought the Alpa over the Horseman and Cambo because of Dealer support. 

In May, when I bought the camera, I could find very little information about the Cambo or Horseman.  The Horseman only had 4 lenses available.  The Calumet website was a mess.  Often it listed lenses for the cambo as having a 3 month wait time.

The Alpa website had a wealth of information.  Badger Graphics listed prices for everything.  I ended up buying from Fotocare in New York.  Jeff is very knowledgeable and helpful.  With anything Alpa I wanted to buy from him, he either had in stock, or had it to me, from Europe in 3 days.

Architects like putting large prints on their walls.  I would not be afraid to put a 30" x 40" print from this system next to a print from 4x5 film.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I usualy use Phase One P45 on my Contax 645 and array of lenses, including some Hasselblad CF/FE with MAM1 adapter.  I also own the Apla12W and 12SW and recently just ordered the CO645 adapter so I can use the P45 with Apla.  The question is, I have so far only 38mm Biogon and the 48mm Apo-Helvitar, has any tried these two leses with digital backs?  Are they performing as good or close to the digitar?  Or the new Sironar?  
Since mot likely I will continue to use Contax as prime gear until may be Hy6 becomes available then, and only use Alpa for focal length wider than my 35mm Distagon so I have 2 choices, one is the 28/4 Apo-Sironar or going wider using 24 Digitar?  Anyone can give some advise?
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Eric Zepeda
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2006, 04:39:08 PM »
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On Cambo WDS, the lens moves when shifting horizontally or vertically, not the back...stitching will not be ideal. To change from horizontal to vertical orientation, you remove the back, rotate to vertical and replace. The camera does not need to be put on it's side. In talking to Irwin Miller over at Calumet NY, I was told that film and digital back are not compatible due to coverage issues etc. I would love it to be the case as I still have clients that request film. Irwin is highly knowledgeable and most helpful, if you have any Cambo WDS questions, I highly reccomend calling him at Calumet NY.

I have been using the 35 and 47xl's with a P25, and am very happy, lcc's and all.
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