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Author Topic: Phase One/ Mamiya  (Read 4427 times)
mcfoto
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« on: September 29, 2006, 09:59:30 PM »
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Hi
Of all the developments this week the one that interested me, as I am a Mamiya user is the talks between the two, Phase & Mamiya. I find this a postive move as it could lead to a more affordable MFD system. When I talk to photographers here in Australia due to market forces most are using Canon and then Nikon 35D. Since the ZD is already built and working. If PHASE ONE comes on board they could take this camera to a new level!! For example, new screen, increased buffer rate and the use of the Phase software. The camera is built using an excellent chip. So most of the design is done. Phase would bring their digital knowhow & Mamiya would continue building cameras and lenses. I have mentioned this before since Dalsa has a larger chip built for NASA( physical size). If this merger did happen if Phase built a 6x7 back FF sensor for the Mamiya RZ camera. I talked to someone about this and he said it would be a 180 mg file processed in 8 bit. Now if Leaf & Phase have increased there speed ( ie: 1.1 sec for the Aptus 33 ), could it not be possible for a back for the RZ to be 2 sec recycle. I have been shooting MFD for 7 years. My first experience was with a Sinar 2x2 chip 15mg raw file, 2 sec recycle. So if we are at 37x48 size chip 110mg raw file now  this just makes sense for the future. PHASE would have the best of both worlds 6x4.5 and 6x7 cameras with a merger with MAMIYA. What do you think?
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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bcroslin
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2006, 10:12:39 PM »
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I find this a postive move as it could lead to a more affordable MFD system.

My kneejerk reaction is that it would result in a more expensive camera from Mamiya rather than the other way around. I'd like to see Mamiya stay independent of any back company and continue offering an open platform and not go the way of Hasselblad. If Mamiya could just get the ZD back on the market it might result in some MF digital back prices coming down to a more affordable level.
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Bob Croslin, Photographer
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2006, 10:18:32 PM »
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I have mentioned this before since Dalsa has a larger chip built for NASA( physical size). If this merger did happen if Phase built a 6x7 back FF sensor for the Mamiya RZ camera.

Do the math - you're talking about a chip that even 2 or 3 years from now is still going to cost you well over 100k USD. My guess is that unless you're building a satellite and you've got NASA's money you're not going to see a chip that big on the market any time soon.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2006, 10:37:16 PM »
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I probably wouldn't hesitate long before buying a 33MP ZD33 for 20.000 US$, or a universal back with the same resolution for 16.000 US$.

Cheers,
Bernard
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mcfoto
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2006, 02:20:43 AM »
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I'd like to see Mamiya stay independent of any back company and continue offering an open platform and not go the way of Hasselblad. If Mamiya could just get the ZD back on the market it might result in some MF digital back prices coming down to a more affordable level.





Hi
I think the way the market is going Mamiya will have to merge with someone. It has been two years and they still haven't got the ZD back on the market. They make great cameras but they don't have the knowledge of Phase when it comes to IT. I still think they could continue to make the AFDII so other digital platforms will work ( a wise move ). But when it comes to digital, let a company like Phase do it. I can't see any point in trying to reinevent the wheel. MF is not a huge market and with Rolie now a player it just got for competitive.
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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eronald
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 03:40:31 AM »
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I probably wouldn't hesitate long before buying a 33MP ZD33 for 20.000 US$, or a universal back with the same resolution for 16.000 US$.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78358\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard,

I'm shopping around too for a Mamiya solution. I've looked at all the available and soon to be MF cameras -Rolli, Hassycon, Mammy - and the "old" Mamiya with a clip on back appeals to me most, the finder seems much better than that of the ZD, and you can get easily at the CCD for cleaning. Also, I hear the imagery is better with the backs but I cannot verify that.

Bernard, have you tried the two side by side ? I really think the old Mamiya is as fast to point and shoot as an SLR. I tried one for five minutes with a Phase back, and was quite happy immediately with finding my way around it and with the resulting images. The one thing Id be worried about is mirror slap. And if a body dies you just get another one off eBay. Everyone agrees that digital backs have extremely few hardware issues while bodies have the same bunch of problems as any moving-parts machine.

I also tried a Hasselblad, but there I really don't like the finder, and the resultig images looked strange. Like every thing else that is being displayed from that camera in fact. It's that weird software processing they use and their back - I've seen imagery which was taken with Phase on Hassleblad that looked good.

There is a new trend, very strong at Photokina, to have imagery manipulated completely by the software - at the Phase booth when I said I wanted to see an image without any modifications at the Raw level they looked at me really strangely. Leaf, Phase and Haselblad are pushing their software very strongly, and pasting complex profiles over every image, and Haselblad are doing a lot of in-camera lens aberration correction which also affects the "look" of the files.

It's becoming harder and harder to separate the camera "look" from the look of the camera software.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
michael
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2006, 07:31:08 AM »
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Don't read too much into the Mamiya / Phase announcement. It's simply a statement that the two companies intend on working together on various projects. In this marketplace companies make these announcements and then try and figure out what that something might be.

Michael
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marcwilson
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2006, 10:45:24 AM »
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Bernard,

Bernard, have you tried the two side by side ? I really think the old Mamiya is as fast to point and shoot as an SLR. I tried one for five minutes with a Phase back, and was quite happy immediately with finding my way around it and with the resulting images. The one thing Id be worried about is mirror slap. And if a body dies you just get another one off eBay. Everyone agrees that digital backs have extremely few hardware issues while bodies have the same bunch of problems as any moving-parts machine.

Edmund
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Of course another reason to go the afd body/back combo over the zd is you can then use the back on a view camera if you need full movements. (If not then of course the size etc of the zd may be better than the body/back combo.)
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pss
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2006, 01:52:07 PM »
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Bernard,

There is a new trend, very strong at Photokina, to have imagery manipulated completely by the software - at the Phase booth when I said I wanted to see an image without any modifications at the Raw level they looked at me really strangely. Leaf, Phase and Haselblad are pushing their software very strongly, and pasting complex profiles over every image, and Haselblad are doing a lot of in-camera lens aberration correction which also affects the "look" of the files.

It's becoming harder and harder to separate the camera "look" from the look of the camera software.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78379\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

not sure if you have ever worked with MF files...files that are 16bit, 12 stop dynamic range, flat curve,...look flat and muddy, because there is so much information there...so every manufacturer applies profiles (and curves) to their files....the raw information is still there and you can always make your own profiles
as much as the different manufacturers would like to tell you otherwise, the file quality is pretty much the same, you can get different results with different software, but all in all every look can be achieved with every back and every software...in my experience imacon/hasselblad is the only exception, i have not been able to get really good skintones with their solution...does not mean it cannot be done, i have not spent that much time with it...
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eronald
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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2006, 06:36:55 PM »
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not sure if you have ever worked with MF files...files that are 16bit, 12 stop dynamic range, flat curve,...look flat and muddy, because there is so much information there...so every manufacturer applies profiles (and curves) to their files....the raw information is still there and you can always make your own profiles
as much as the different manufacturers would like to tell you otherwise, the file quality is pretty much the same, you can get different results with different software, but all in all every look can be achieved with every back and every software...in my experience imacon/hasselblad is the only exception, i have not been able to get really good skintones with their solution...does not mean it cannot be done, i have not spent that much time with it...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They're all doing brutal selective color edits,not just luminosity curves ...
As or the hassy - I took a portrait with it at kina, it looked, well, hassy-like. Of course if Hassies become the gold standrd everyone will want to be hassy-like. I thought it was the lens which messed up the skin, but since have seen some Phase hassy pix which looked ok.
I also took a pix with a Leaf back, nice but some strange color stuff going on.
Wasn't able to get near a live Phase back. Yet.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
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