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Author Topic: WANTED: Mamiya ZD users...!  (Read 14316 times)
mtomalty
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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2006, 02:11:23 PM »
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Mark, what specific standards are you referring to?

I suppose I used the wrong term.  I guess using professional 'expectations' would
more accurately reflect what I was trying to say.
In my particular case,I would professionally 'expect' that a 16 x 20 print offered for sale
would not exhibit a high hot pixel count when using a particular digital back at long
exposures and low ISO setting.

As well,I just want to clarify that I was referring to  only  the single aspect of long exposure
noise characteristics in my previous posts and did not intend to characterize the overall
performance of one back or another as sub standard.

It's pretty obvious that everything on the market can deliver an amazing file in most situations
and the trick is to find the specific back which meets as much of our individual needs as
possible.
The ZD,with its attractive pricepoint,is certainly a contender but if it has similar long exposure
characteristics as I've seen on other Dalsa chipped backs then it's probably not going to be
the right fit for me regardless of price

That now seems to be more poiltically correct :>))

Mark
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aaron
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2006, 02:27:29 PM »
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I too am sitting on the fence on the purchase of the ZD but the only desision i need to make is whether to go for the ZD SLR or the ZD Back (assuming it appears-soon!!), taking price into the equation, I really can't see what the competition is. The Aptus 22 is obviously an amazing piece of kit but the main difference between it and the ZD seems to be in terms of shooting speed rather than image quality- Is this statement correct or is there really an obvious difference in the quality of the files produced? (that question is aimed squarely at Dennis -aka MCPHOTO who uses both systems!)
For me personally, I am not prepared to pay over twice the price for a faster image buffer,- remember how long it took to change a roll of 120 ?
Quentin mentions how he finds the quality coming from his ZD to be equal to that of a 6x7 drumscan! What more do we really need?
If the great Ansel Adams was about today and you gave him a ZD, do you think we would be looking at the results and thinking "mmm, if only he had used an Aptus or Phase one"  
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nik
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2006, 03:51:07 PM »
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If the ZD back was behind glass at Photokina, I doubt it's coming out soon. I have a post elsewhere on this forum with links to hires files of the Mamiya ZD and eMotion22. It's a decent camera, built like a brick shit-house, but you REALLY DO have to take care about noise though, anything above 100ASA is unnacceptable in my view. Why don't you rent one and see for yourself?

And yes, if Ansel Adams were around today, he'd probably be using Phase One! (on a view camera of course)

How much time do you have before you spend the $$$ ? The ZD should tumble soon in price.
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wilburdl
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2006, 04:11:32 PM »
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Um, who's atually selling it?
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Darnell
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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2006, 04:31:47 PM »
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I'm guessing you're in the USA? No luck then, it's for sale in Europe. I use these guys in London;

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/


Nick



------------------------
Nick Vasilopoulos
http://www.stoqq.com



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Um, who's atually selling it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Quentin
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2006, 04:46:08 PM »
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I'm guessing you're in the USA? No luck then, it's for sale in Europe. I use these guys in London;

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/
Nick
------------------------
Nick Vasilopoulos
http://www.stoqq.com
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I purchased mine from Robert White, who were selling at well below anyone elses price as part of a summer discount, including a 80mm lens.  Not sure if they have any new stock left.  [a href=\"http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/]http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/[/url]

I'll give a 30 sec exposure a go.  I'd probably switch to 8x10 film for that  

Quentin
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 04:46:31 PM by Quentin » Logged

Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
ivan muller
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2006, 04:46:22 PM »
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Quote from: mtomalty,Oct 4 2006, 10:04 AM
Quentin

What about longer?  4 seconds is not really that challenging for digital capture these days.


hi
so its about 11pm here and I have just shot a couple of exposures at 8, 15 & 30 sec's.

Quite interesting exercise. I have not used the cs2 noise reduction before! so I am not quite sure what settings to use. At 15 sec viewed at 50% before sharpeing and noise reduction - noise only just visible in black areas. (Photographed my office with a 300w tunsten bounced of a white ceiling, light spillingthrough door onto floor and walls outside with a weak fluorescent light outside, green, and streetlamps. sky black with little detail in street.) Using a slider to increase blacks improved noise in black areas. With noise reduction I managed to elimate 90-95% of noise in black areas. Sharpening afterwards with focalblade set at soft didnt change much. But as I said I am a novice at noise reduction! Very little noise inareas where there were enough detail, texture and light. This is viewed at 50% on my 19inch monitor.
For myself, so far, wont have a problem exposing up to 15 sec.

Quentin - I am going to try silky pix. Is there a fee and howmuch? Any suggestions on noise reduction techniques?

Thanks and goodnight - Ivan
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Quentin
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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2006, 04:54:05 PM »
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Ivan,

SilkyPix is available as a fully functioning demo, therafter you have to buy, about $100 I believe.  I have had my copy for some time.  I keep coming back to it.

There is a quality slider that I usually make sure is set at the max (99).  I reduce sharpening to "a little weak" or "weak", and generaly leave the NR setting set by SilkyPix alone as its set low and  works well.  At low ISO, no post development NR is needed.

Do read the online manual.  Not all the settings are self explanatory, and the workflow is a little weird until you get used to it, then you realise its very intuitive.  There are some very useful built in CA and distortion corrections, including perspective correction etc.  For example, the Mamiya 35mm has some moustache distortion.  Silkypix alows this to be corrected very well at the decoding stage - useful.

Quentin

Quote
Quentin

What about longer?  4 seconds is not really that challenging for digital capture these days.
hi
so its about 11pm here and I have just shot a couple of exposures at 8, 15 & 30 sec's.

Quite interesting exercise. I have not used the cs2 noise reduction before! so I am not quite sure what settings to use. At 15 sec viewed at 50% before sharpeing and noise reduction - noise only just visible in black areas. (Photographed my office with a 300w tunsten bounced of a white ceiling, light spillingthrough door onto floor and walls outside with a weak fluorescent light outside, green, and streetlamps. sky black with little detail in street.) Using a slider to increase blacks improved noise in black areas. With noise reduction I managed to elimate 90-95% of noise in black areas. Sharpening afterwards with focalblade set at soft didnt change much. But as I said I am a novice at noise reduction! Very little noise inareas where there were enough detail, texture and light. This is viewed at 50% on my 19inch monitor.
For myself, so far, wont have a problem exposing up to 15 sec.

Quentin - I am going to try silky pix. Is there a fee and howmuch? Any suggestions on noise reduction techniques?

Thanks and goodnight - Ivan
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 04:54:59 PM by Quentin » Logged

Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
mtomalty
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2006, 05:32:12 PM »
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Thanks for that,Ivan.  Sounds promising!

The 'noise' that I have had a problem with is less of the more normal chroma sort but a
type that manifests itself as very bright hot (red,white,and to a lesser degree blue) pixels.

Check out my post in these same Medium Format forums with the title 'Aptus Assist'
Here you will see a 100% crop of what I've been getting.

Thanks again for the test

Mark
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Kumar
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2006, 05:54:15 PM »
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Ivan,

Thanks for doing the test. That's exactly the kind of image I'm looking for. Now if there was a way to get the raw file to Quentin, he could process it in Silkypix and post it for all of us to see.

Quentin,

I'm looking forward to your test as well, and if possible, to your interpretation of Ivan's image.

Cheers
Kumar
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mcfoto
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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2006, 05:55:41 PM »
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Quote from: aaron,Oct 4 2006, 02:27 PM
I too am sitting on the fence on the purchase of the ZD but the only desision i need to make is whether to go for the ZD SLR or the ZD Back (assuming it appears-soon!!), taking price into the equation, I really can't see what the competition is. The Aptus 22 is obviously an amazing piece of kit but the main difference between it and the ZD seems to be in terms of shooting speed rather than image quality- Is this statement correct or is there really an obvious difference in the quality of the files produced? (that question is aimed squarely at Dennis -aka MCPHOTO who uses both systems!)
For me personally, I am not prepared to pay over twice the price for a faster image buffer,- remember how long it took to change a roll of 120 ?
Quentin mentions how he finds the quality coming from his ZD to be equal to that of a 6x7 drumscan! What more do we really need?

Hi
The way I shoot is in the studio ayt iso 50-100 as I want the best quality a back can deliver. I have used the ZD on location flash fill for editorial and the quaility is amazing. I have compared the same file to the Aptus 22 at iso 50 & the Aptus has the slight edge. I am blowing them up on the sreen to a 100% in the blue channel. The ZD was processed in RAW which made the huge jump in the ZD files ( night & day compared to MPS ).Even when I am shooting with the Apyus 22 I will always stay at iso 50 sometimes I have shot at iso 100. Overall I really like the feel & weight of the ZD. The screen is useable & readable outside. I have put a Delkin hood on it. The viewfinder has a bar showing how much is left in the buffer. Really get one and test it for yourself. I cannot believe that it hasn't been released in the US yet!! There is no camera like it at that price point and if they sold it with both SILK PIX & RAW they would have some very happy customers!!! If Phase comes on board & allow the ZD to work with Phase software that is going to be a bonus.
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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ronno
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2006, 06:50:57 PM »
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Why do people periodically say that Mamiya is going out of business? Is there any solid evedence of this?
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eronald
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2006, 10:19:15 PM »
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Why do people periodically say that Mamiya is going out of business? Is there any solid evedence of this?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79125\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They don't look like they're going out of business. On the other hand, they look like they have organisational problems in the US, due to product line conflicts in the MAC group.

My feeling is that the ZD may at the moment be the bestselling MF camera in Europe.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 10:20:10 PM by eronald » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2006, 11:58:30 PM »
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My feeling is that the ZD may at the moment be the bestselling MF camera in Europe
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I dont think so - I think robert white and teamwork both the one each that they cant sell hence slashing the price periodically

Make em an offer

------------

I wouldnt buy one because..

125 flash synch - and no low ISO unlike film - so restrictive for flash portrature outside on a sunny day

Mechanical failure of the body will render the back out of service

No view camera option reduces the options for T/S stitching etc

Hard to clean chip

An upgrade to 39mp will doubtless require desposal of the whole unit

-------------

In terms of getting a hot pixel image the test must be something really dark - shadow areas on long exposures

-------------

There are of course situations where this camera makes sense - say for a studio based mamiya afd owner with lens collection on a 'limited' budget or for natural light shooters who love the 'look' of '645' images and the joy of looking through a nice big screen
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« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2006, 11:59:23 PM »
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Why do people periodically say that Mamiya is going out of business? Is there any solid evedence of this?

There's little evidence thus far that their distribution in NA is a sure thing. No one's talking, at least, audibly.
I've tried corresponding with the MAC group without success. B&H still has their listing with no delivery date forecast. I have had a brief discussion with Brian Lewington at Harry's Pro Shop in Toronto. Since that discussion he has posted pricing for the ZD on his website. I plan on taking a trip there if he can get a demo sorted out. This thread is certainly a useful step forward. I appreciate you guys posting your impressions.
 
Quote
On the other hand, they look like they have organisational problems in the US, due to product line conflicts in the MAC group.

I'm not sure what you mean by this eronald? It appears more like synergy from my perspective.

As for the pricing, Robert White in the UK was selling the ZD recently for as low as 6k BP.

I'd be interested to hear about anything related to the IR & Low pass filter usage.

JBM
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meierruedi
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« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2006, 12:50:14 AM »
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"What about longer?  4 seconds is not really that challenging for digital capture these days."


I tried 30sec at 400ISO and it's simply not usable: there are along with tons of noise a lot of colour blotches populating the file, looks like some poor art student tried to imitate Seurat. I know it's a hard test but this long an exposure is sometimes necessary (had to do exactly this with my 5D two weeks ago and no problem at all).
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Kumar
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« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2006, 01:45:54 AM »
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"What about longer?  4 seconds is not really that challenging for digital capture these days."
I tried 30sec at 400ISO and it's simply not usable: there are along with tons of noise a lot of colour blotches populating the file, looks like some poor art student tried to imitate Seurat. I know it's a hard test but this long an exposure is sometimes necessary (had to do exactly this with my 5D two weeks ago and no problem at all).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79158\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Did you try 30~45 sec at 100ISO?

Kumar
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ivan muller
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« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2006, 02:37:36 AM »
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hi
Thanks Quentin. I downloaded silkypix. Actually seems to be a very nice program so far.

30sec exposure: For all practical purposes no noise. A few lost, mainly blue pixels, in the black areas. Thanks. I learned something today. Silkypix is great for noise reduction and the ZD can easily handle 30sec exposures at 50iso with this program! Definately easier to use than CS2 - everything is done automatically! will try longer exposures and 100 iso later.
Thanks Ivan
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ivan muller
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« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2006, 02:51:28 AM »
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I dont think so - I think robert white and teamwork both the one each that they cant sell hence slashing the price periodically

Make em an offer

------------

I wouldnt buy one because..

125 flash synch - and no low ISO unlike film - so restrictive for flash portrature outside on a sunny day

Mechanical failure of the body will render the back out of service

No view camera option reduces the options for T/S stitching etc

Hard to clean chip

An upgrade to 39mp will doubtless require desposal of the whole unit

-------------

In terms of getting a hot pixel image the test must be something really dark - shadow areas on long exposures

-------------

There are of course situations where this camera makes sense - say for a studio based mamiya afd owner with lens collection on a 'limited' budget or for natural light shooters who love the 'look' of '645' images and the joy of looking through a nice big screen
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi So what camera would you buy?

Wouldnt a back upgrade require disposal of the old back as well. The ZD unit is far less expensive than just the competitions backs alone?

The shift lens will give you some flexibility for stiching.

It is easy to remove the ir filter and clean that.

I havent tried it yet but I know there are some lmanual leafshutter lense for mamiya. I dont know if they will work on the ZD. My shift lens works easily enough on manual focus and a spotmeter.

For me the competition is so restrictive on my wallet. That is one negative that I cant seem to solve. Meanwhile I will just go out and shoot a couple of pics today while some of you guys keep on agonizing which is the best remaining 'open' system to to spend a fortune on.
goodluck and thanks. Ivan
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WillyV.
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2006, 06:58:57 AM »
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I dont think so - I think robert white and teamwork both the one each that they cant sell hence slashing the price periodically

Make em an offer

------------

I wouldnt buy one because..

125 flash synch - and no low ISO unlike film - so restrictive for flash portrature outside on a sunny day

Mechanical failure of the body will render the back out of service

No view camera option reduces the options for T/S stitching etc

Hard to clean chip

An upgrade to 39mp will doubtless require desposal of the whole unit

-------------

In terms of getting a hot pixel image the test must be something really dark - shadow areas on long exposures

-------------

There are of course situations where this camera makes sense - say for a studio based mamiya afd owner with lens collection on a 'limited' budget or for natural light shooters who love the 'look' of '645' images and the joy of looking through a nice big screen
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79154\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi, If you buy a camera now (ZD) I´m sure that the Mamiya dealer will take your "old" unit as a trade-in when the new ZD (with 39MP will be out, if it will be). There´s always somebody that wants to pay a bit less than a new camera... So this is not a real problem, talk with your local dealer. Of course you can get problems with a digital solution and that´s the same with all brands. I don´t think there has been many problems with the ZD or am I wrong?
The chip is not to hard to clean and so far we´ve had very little trouble with dust on the sensor.
So as many has said before, test the camera and see for yourself! Thanks for all the nice feedback so far.
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