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Author Topic: Monitor Profiling -New Products**  (Read 19765 times)
Raw shooter
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« on: October 04, 2006, 07:06:12 PM »
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After trying to determine the best product for monitor hardware profiling, I am stuck.  There seems to be several"improved" new versions of these products.
The ones I saw were listed were:

ColorVision Spyder2  
GretagMacbeth Eye-One Display 2 + Eye-One Match 3.2a software
Monaco Optix XR Pro (integrated package)  
ColorEyes Display 3.10 (with Monaco XR/DTP-94 sensor)  

The products seemed rated best were from best to worst:
1) Color Eyes
2) Monaco
3) Gretag
4) Colorvision

Is Color Eyes the best product?  Is this opinion broadly based by the pros on this site?
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks
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michael
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 08:14:36 PM »
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I have the latest version of Coloreyes and plan and testing it shortly. I found the previous version to be excellent.

Michael
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Hermie
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2006, 12:47:22 AM »
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Please note that the Optix/DTP-94 will be discontinued per december 1st.

See http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=12330

Herman
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digitaldog
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2006, 09:12:10 AM »
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Note there are two products, ColorEyes and basICColor display and the other day, I asked Karl Koch the differences on the Colorsync list. From his post, I think you want to investigate basICColor.

The ColorEyes guys always gave me a headache anyway <g>

Quote
Hi Andrew,

up to version 3, the technology behind both products was the same 
(ICS). Version 4 is new from scratcth, different calibration and 
profiling algorithms, similar, but still different UI – made with 
different programming tools. In the U.S. version we do not have L* 
calibration any more (patent issues), rest of world we still offer 
this option. But after the implementation of CIECAM02 mechanisms in 
basICColor display 4 and its derivates, L* is history! L* is based on 
30 years old technology, CIECAM02 was defined in 2002, you figure ;-)
You can download and try basICColor display 4 and find the 
differences for yourself
www.basiccolor.de
I bet, you´ll like it. 4.1 is due for release end of October, please 
contact me off list, if you want to try the beta.

Regards,

Karl

Am 03.10.2006 um 18:32 schrieb Andrew Rodney:

> On 10/3/06 10:24 AM, "Karl Koch"  wrote:
>
>> And, please don´t confuse ColorEyes and basICColor display – two
>> completely different animals!
>
> Can you clarify the differences because it's not clear to me.
>
> Andrew Rodney
> http://www.digitaldog.net/
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2006, 09:19:11 AM »
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I really look forward to that CIECAM02 behavior calibration. That finally makes sense. Didn't I also read about some sort of synchro between monitor and viewing booth? That's certainly would be a great feature as well...
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Oscar Rysdyk
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 09:36:47 AM »
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Didn't I also read about some sort of synchro between monitor and viewing booth? That's certainly would be a great feature as well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79194\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes but it's a specific model of booth (not all). Can't recall which but it was a Just Normlicht box. They are nice (nice and expensive). I hope the boys at GTI get their boxes working with this company too.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 07:09:23 PM »
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Yes but it's a specific model of booth (not all). Can't recall which but it was a Just Normlicht box. They are nice (nice and expensive). I hope the boys at GTI get their boxes working with this company too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Digital Dog,

I tried lookiing for the product basICColor display on the Integrated Color website and I did not see it.
They seem to have three products:
1) ColorEyes Display
2) ColorEyes 20/20
3) PhotoMatrix

What am I missing on product offerings?
You seem to really get this subject matter.  What would you buy now, for accurate monitor profiling?
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msbc
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 08:29:06 PM »
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Note there are two products, ColorEyes and basICColor display and the other day, I asked Karl Koch the differences on the Colorsync list. From his post, I think you want to investigate basICColor.

The ColorEyes guys always gave me a headache anyway <g>
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quote
But after the implementation of CIECAM02 mechanisms in
basICColor display 4 and its derivates, L* is history! L* is based on
30 years old technology, CIECAM02 was defined in 2002, you figure ;-)

Andrew,

I'm a little confused about this info regarding L* calibration. Hasn't this been touted as the best calibration method? ICS recommend it!

I use display 4.02 on my ACD's with the L* setting. The alternative would be Gamma 2.2??

Confused,
Mark
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 08:30:26 PM by msbc » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 08:54:35 PM »
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Andrew,

I'm a little confused about this info regarding L* calibration. Hasn't this been touted as the best calibration method? ICS recommend it!

I use display 4.02 on my ACD's with the L* setting. The alternative would be Gamma 2.2??

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79257\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The new CIEcam stuff is supposed to be cutting edge (based on appearance models).

I just downloaded a beta to check out but I need to spend more time looking it over. But the manual and UI look pretty nice. Tomorrow I'll hook up a few devices and see how it does on a few LCDs and maybe a hard to profile CRT (one with an extended Adobe RGB (1998) gamut).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 10:40:12 PM »
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I've just downloaded 4.02 and did a monitor calibration.  Picked their photography preset (L*, D50).  I was previously using EyeOne Match 3.6 and had used native white point.  D50 seems a bit warm.  What should I be using?

Also, it's much brighter with basICColor as they recommend setting the brightness and contrast to the factory default.

Andrew, have you used their rgb printer profiling?  If so, how does it compare to EyeOne Match?

Justin.
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« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2006, 08:27:43 AM »
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I've just downloaded 4.02 and did a monitor calibration.  Picked their photography preset (L*, D50).  I was previously using EyeOne Match 3.6 and had used native white point.  D50 seems a bit warm.  What should I be using?

Also, it's much brighter with basICColor as they recommend setting the brightness and contrast to the factory default.

Andrew, have you used their rgb printer profiling?  If so, how does it compare to EyeOne Match?

Justin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79265\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Haven't tried any of their stuff in years (expect the beta we both have).

One feature I saw which I really like is the ability to set a contrast ratio (which I could do on the Artisan). You might need to play with target values for luminance instead of a preset. On an LCD, I'm going to try Native (as soon as I get past a slight beta issue seeing my EyeOne).
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2006, 12:42:20 PM »
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Did a bit of testing with the OPTIX. Used an iMac LCD. The software has some rough UI edges I'd like to see addressed. But the subsequent calibration and profile look very nice. I asked for a Native white point and for luminance I asked for 120cd/m2 and a contrast ratio of 450:1. The results are that assigning this profile to a black doc and doing the old levels trick, I can see separation at 3 which ain't bad (the same device using EyeOne Match didn't show separation until level 6 and the brightness seems too extreme compared to this profile). I might do a 500:1 contrast ratio since this is closer to the target of my usual output (ink jet prints). Neutrality is very good.

Assigning profiles to a black to white gradient. Just a little banding in one area of the darker regions that is also a tad green. But pretty smooth. When I assign the other OPTIX profile, I see more banding on the gradient, less tonal separation but pretty darn neutral all the way. So EyeOne Match isn't bad in some respects and to be fair, I'd have to target both products to identical target calibration aim points. Both profiles are LUT based.
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Andrew Rodney
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Stephen Best
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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2006, 05:38:16 PM »
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Haven't tried any of their stuff in years (expect the beta we both have).

One feature I saw which I really like is the ability to set a contrast ratio (which I could do on the Artisan). You might need to play with target values for luminance instead of a preset. On an LCD, I'm going to try Native (as soon as I get past a slight beta issue seeing my EyeOne).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just a warning about "Native" in basICColor display 4.02. This doesn't flatline the video LUT (as Match does) but merely uses what's loaded. As such, it's profiling only. There's a lot to like in display but I get better results (cleaner, more neutral, gray ramps) with the latest Match. I'll give the coming version a try to see how they compare then. I also came to the conclusion that ColorEyes wasn't any better, though probably worth a look if you have an Eizo (or similar) that supports hardware calibration. It only partly worked with my NEC 2090.

Somebody was asking about dropRGB. I tried this and the generated Perceptual tables were abysmal, nor did the output match the soft-proof results. I didn't get much further with it. It's very easy to use though ... just feed it the file from ProfileMaker's MeasureTool (LAB not spectral data). It's free to try.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 05:48:32 PM by Stephen Best » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2006, 05:59:36 PM »
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There's a lot to like in display but I get better results (cleaner, more neutral, gray ramps) with the

That's exactly what I'm seeing so far. The ramp is smoother but there's a good 15% of one area of the ramp that's decidedly greenish.

I have a lot more playing around to do.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2006, 10:54:42 PM »
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The ColorEyes guys always gave me a headache anyway <g>
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What's the headache? - I used it with the Monaco OPTIX XR (Same as DPT94) on a CRT and now using it on my Lacie 321 LCD. It works like a charm, couldn't be easier, with an appropriate luminance setting (low) delivers reliable soft-proofing for both luminosity and colour balance to the extent possible given inherent differences between direct and reflected light. The only headache I've come accross is to insure that the video card is one of those on their list of recognized cards if you want the software to operate DDC. But if it can't there is a workaround. From my experience Integrated Color is very supportive - i.e. they help when asked.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2006, 09:06:45 AM »
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What's the headache? - I used it with the Monaco OPTIX XR (Same as DPT94) on a CRT and now using it on my Lacie 321 LCD. It works like a charm, couldn't be easier, with an appropriate luminance setting (low) delivers reliable soft-proofing for both luminosity and colour balance to the extent possible given inherent differences between direct and reflected light. The only headache I've come accross is to insure that the video card is one of those on their list of recognized cards if you want the software to operate DDC. But if it can't there is a workaround. From my experience Integrated Color is very supportive - i.e. they help when asked.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Mark,

Thanks. that is what I was looking for - someome who had success with one of the products.
Anything to look for when using ColorEyes - the UI or presets that you used?
Thanks in advance
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« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2006, 09:22:04 AM »
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What's the headache? -

Not the software (necessarily) the company!

Short of some minor tweaking, they didn't really wrote any code (that's good ol' Franz and Dan from ColorBlind days). I haven't checked but I assume they are still with ICS writing the real code.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2006, 10:08:16 AM »
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Mark,

Anything to look for when using ColorEyes - the UI or presets that you used?
Thanks in advance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79415\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not much really - it is truly quite straightforward. When you first use it, you must do both calibration and profiling. Their menus take you through the procedure step by step. You need to be sure to select the Profiling and Calibration path to begin with, and you need to be sure that you have correctly selected the kind of monitor you are using (LCD or CRT). From there, the only discretionary settings you need to make before the process takes-over are gamma, luminosity and white balance. For gamma they recommend L* which I use successfully, for luminance I set it to 110, because my LCD is otherwise too bright relative to the Enhanced Matte that comes out of the printer; for white balance I use 6500K, because this setting on the monitor corresponds best for the human visual system when we look at prints under D50 illumination. Don't ask me why, but it works. Once you've made those three choices, the software does the rest. Once it finishes there is a profile verification option which I always activate; it measures another fifteen patches and gives you a Delta-E readout for both grayscale and R,G,B. This gives you a clear indication of the profile's reliability. The program automatically makes the new profile your default monitor profile, but it is always good to double-check this in you video card driver advanced colour settings tab.

It is important to make sure when you start the procedure that you do a good reading of the black patch as they suggest (no stray light and the correct kind of black material) and that no ambient light is getting in between the colorimeter and the patch on the monitor where you place the instrument.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2006, 10:17:39 AM »
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Not the software (necessarily) the company!

Short of some minor tweaking, they didn't really wrote any code (that's good ol' Franz and Dan from ColorBlind days). I haven't checked but I assume they are still with ICS writing the real code.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew, I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. I don't care whether their Mothers-in-Law wrote the software. The important thing is whether it works properly and whether the company provides an appropriate level of support, and from my experience the answer to both of these issues is YES.

As an internationally recognized author on the subject of colour management I think you have an added burden of responsibility in how you handle issues that could be commercially-sensitive - and believe me - I have no relationship with any of these companies - it is a generic principle.

Cheers,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2006, 10:28:46 AM »
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Andrew, I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. I don't care whether their Mothers-in-Law wrote the software. The important thing is whether it works properly and whether the company provides an appropriate level of support, and from my experience the answer to both of these issues is YES.

As an internationally recognized author on the subject of colour management I think you have an added burden of responsibility in how you handle issues that could be commercially-sensitive - and believe me - I have no relationship with any of these companies - it is a generic principle.

Cheers,

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark, I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. I had NO problem with the software, I had problems with the ColorEyes people who represented the software.
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Andrew Rodney
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