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Author Topic: Market penetration  (Read 6308 times)
Quentin
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« on: October 05, 2006, 11:30:19 AM »
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I am curious about the numbers. It strikes me that the medium format back / MF digital camera market is incredibly small, but that is simply an impression based on other photographers I speak to here in the UK (very few of whom are anywhere near buying in to MF digital and look at me as if I am mad to suggest it or do so) and what I can glean of sales from various sources.  Are there any figures for the sale of, say, Phase One backs, or the MF digital market as a whole, either as an absolute figure or as a market percentage (or both)?

Quentin
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2006, 01:56:47 PM »
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I share your curiosity Quentin and have read some reports, one of which is the Camera & Imaging Products Association (CIPA) report from Japan. There are other sources for the EU & NA but they're only available at very high cost from market research specialists. I haven't had the time to look into it but plan to before the end of the month.  What I've found is that it's often difficult to parse the numbers specifically for MF because of aggregates in the reporting - further supporting the contention that the market is statistically marginal.

Here's an example of what I found last week.

I'm sure the MF players have commissioned their own research but I've yet to find a lead on them.

JBM
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Quentin
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2006, 02:20:59 PM »
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Hmm so its all shrouded in secrecy     I suppose I am not surprised.  You can get a misleading impression of the "real" world from these forums.

Quentin

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I share your curiosity Quentin and have read some reports, one of which is the Camera & Imaging Products Association (CIPA) report from Japan. There are other sources for the EU & NA but they're only available at very high cost from market research specialists. I haven't had the time to look into it but plan to before the end of the month.  What I've found is that it's often difficult to parse the numbers specifically for MF because of aggregates in the reporting - further supporting the contention that the market is statistically marginal.

Here's an example of what I found last week.

I'm sure the MF players have commissioned their own research but I've yet to find a lead on them.

JBM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 02:21:39 PM by Quentin » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2006, 03:34:48 PM »
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Anecdotaly, I live in an area (Tampa Bay) of about 3 million people and as far as I know there's no more than 8-10 photographers here who own a medium format solution. There's also maybe 2-3 inhouse corporate studios locally from what I've been told who own backs. My guess is triple these numbers for Miami not counting DPI and Carousel who rent backs. If I had to guess I'd say there's no more than 60 photographers in FL who actually own their own medium format back and there's maybe 5 or 6 rental houses in the state (and that's being very optimistic).

On the other hand, I can think of 60 photographers who own pro DSLR's in my area off the top of my head. It's almost scary to think about.
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2006, 03:41:16 PM »
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Hmm so its all shrouded in secrecy     I suppose I am not surprised.  You can get a misleading impression of the "real" world from these forums.

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79214\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Right, Quentin. From recent posts in the Lu-La forum it is easy to get the impression that 90% of photographers world-wide are either seriously into MF digital, or are seriously considering it. I sometimes think I'm the only one sitting on the sidelines, reading about MF digital, while trying to get the best results I can from my lowly Canon 5D.  

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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2006, 03:49:06 PM »
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Right, Quentin. From recent posts in the Lu-La forum it is easy to get the impression that 90% of photographers world-wide are either seriously into MF digital, or are seriously considering it. I sometimes think I'm the only one sitting on the sidelines, reading about MF digital, while trying to get the best results I can from my lowly Canon 5D.   

Eric
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in new zeland, there may be 20 photograhers (ones i know of, and a few added that i dont). theres 4 million here.

but the rentals are aways booked out. i think a lot of photographer shoot day to day jobs with canon, but when they are doing a flash job, they hire backs.

but im sure if those canon users could afford it, a lot would buy med format.

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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2006, 04:00:27 PM »
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Hi
Down here in Australia Canon rules the DSLR market. I like canon and owm a 5D however MFD is better. The recent developements last week with Hasselblad did not help MFD. I think Rolie sounds promising & if Phase/Mamiya do work together that could be the best news for MFD. The reason I like Mamiya is that it is affordable to own. I don't know what it is like where you are but here in Australia AD bugets are being cut. And if photographers can shoot AD jobs on 35 DSLR where does that leave MFD? I was at an ACMP function and I think I was one of the few that use MFD. Canon is a market leader here with Nikon a distant second. I still believe in choice and maby Mamiya & Rolie will deliver that.
Thanks Denis
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Robin Balas
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2006, 04:05:01 PM »
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Anecdotaly, I live in an area (Tampa Bay) of about 3 million people and as far as I know there's no more than 8-10 photographers here who own a medium format solution. There's also maybe 2-3 inhouse corporate studios locally from what I've been told who own backs. My guess is triple these numbers for Miami not counting DPI and Carousel who rent backs. If I had to guess I'd say there's no more than 60 photographers in FL who actually own their own medium format back and there's maybe 5 or 6 rental houses in the state (and that's being very optimistic).

On the other hand, I can think of 60 photographers who own pro DSLR's in my area off the top of my head. It's almost scary to think about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I live in a small town in Norway (70.000 people) and there are about 60 registered proffesional photographers in the guild in this town. I personally know of 8 portrait and comercial photographers using digital MF backs. Some have 2 sets. There are probably several more as I don't know the other 52 photographers. The market penetration in Norway must be quite high then if what you state is accurate.
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michael
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2006, 05:31:33 PM »
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The annual marketplace for MF digital backs is currently about 10,000 units.

No big secret. These numbers are available from several industry sources.

Michael
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Quentin
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2006, 06:47:33 PM »
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The annual marketplace for MF digital backs is currently about 10,000 units.

No big secret. These numbers are available from several industry sources.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks for that, Michael; all I would say is its not common knowledge in my neck of the woods, so I must get better sources   .  Not an easy market for manufacturers with those numbers to share out between themselves.

Quentin
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2006, 06:56:13 PM »
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I've read the about 10k unit sales figure before as well. What I'm looking for is a broader index of the health of the MF market and how the individual players intend to keep their share without imploding in the process. This kind of granularity (no pun intended) is harder to ferret out, though not impossible. Whatever I find out I'll post it here...

JBM
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bcroslin
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« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2006, 01:21:29 PM »
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Just wanted to add I was corrected via email and there's apparently 10 fold the number of backs in my neck of the woods. Makes me think we have little to worry about the future.

Not that I was worried to begin with!

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yaya
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« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2006, 02:42:23 PM »
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Thanks for that, Michael; all I would say is its not common knowledge in my neck of the woods, so I must get better sources   .  Not an easy market for manufacturers with those numbers to share out between themselves.

Quentin
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Hi Quentin,

The MFDB install base in UK is estimated at over 1,500, some say 2,000.
Naturally, most of these units live in London, with Manchester in 2nd place.
This is due to UK photographers being "early adopters" since the early days of the Leaf "Brick" in 1992 and effective distribution channels for all the manufacturers.

Over the last 3-4 years there are a few hundreds of units being added every year, showing an annual growth of more than 20%. This is a healthy rate at any industry standard. Especially considering the shirnking market for medium-format cameras in general.
Large format cameras and specialized view cameras (architecture) are showing a healthy growth as well, now that MF digital backs are capable of producing anything and everythig (almost).

Yair
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Quentin
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2006, 04:26:50 PM »
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Hi Yair,

Manchester in second place?  Interesting  

I guess thats not a bad number considering the price.  Certainly there are some good dealers in London I know of.   And I do hear that sales of LF cameras are very healthy, mainly for film I believe.  I have to say I stil like the look of film and love occasionaly shooting 8x10.

Quentin

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Hi Quentin,

The MFDB install base in UK is estimated at over 1,500, some say 2,000.
Naturally, most of these units live in London, with Manchester in 2nd place.
This is due to UK photographers being "early adopters" since the early days of the Leaf "Brick" in 1992 and effective distribution channels for all the manufacturers.

Over the last 3-4 years there are a few hundreds of units being added every year, showing an annual growth of more than 20%. This is a healthy rate at any industry standard. Especially considering the shirnking market for medium-format cameras in general.
Large format cameras and specialized view cameras (architecture) are showing a healthy growth as well, now that MF digital backs are capable of producing anything and everythig (almost).

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79342\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2006, 06:07:09 PM »
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Somerset has a MFDB :-)
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« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2006, 06:15:22 PM »
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Somerset has a MFDB :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I hear there's even one or two in Cornwall as well  

Cheers, yair
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mkravit
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« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2006, 06:18:25 PM »
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If I had to guess I'd say there's no more than 60 photographers in FL who actually own their own medium format back and there's maybe 5 or 6 rental houses in the state (and that's being very optimistic).

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am located in Boca Raton, I know of at least 30-50 owners in South Florida and by all means do not know even a fraction of the photographers who have MFD Backs. I think youmay be significantly off in your assessment and would guess the true number is in excess of a a thousand and perhaps significantly more.
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 08:17:00 PM »
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I would actually find it interesting to know what the ratio is between film and digital MF and what the sales increase is per year of digital backs. I am also interested in the same figures for the 35mm cameras. With all that information, an interesting prediction could be made.

 
m
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« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 10:26:50 PM »
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I am located in Boca Raton, I know of at least 30-50 owners in South Florida

See my followup post where I said I was gently corrected via email on my vast under estimation.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 10:27:23 PM by bcroslin » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2006, 01:31:29 AM »
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I hear there's even one or two in Cornwall [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My cornish location was a significant factor in the move to getting my back - no good tranny proccessing here in banjo country

I was often sending unprocessed 645 to london clients because I couldnt meet magazine deadlines - not a nice feeling to have no edit or looksee first
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