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Author Topic: Phase One/Kodak sensors, next generation?  (Read 19463 times)
bjanes
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« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2006, 07:27:20 AM »
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There's a Dalsa presentation around which explains the issues surrounding CCD vs CMOS. There's lso a Canon Cmos white paper. The Dalsa document discusses some of the issues with stitching specifically CCDs ( the join needs to be analog ). We might be seeing the last CCDs now, with a move to CMOS by all players.

Edmund
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That might be. But presently all the high end medium format backs use CCD as reported by Michael in his recent essay on the subject.

Bill
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eronald
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« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2006, 09:51:52 AM »
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That might be. But presently all the high end medium format backs use CCD as reported by Michael in his recent essay on the subject.

Bill
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Of course, current gen is CCD. The discussion topic here is the next gen and I guess we've drifted into technology details because of the rather specialised readership

In the mean time, speaking of current generation (since Photokina), here is a document which might explain what the Phase+ backs do. It would seem that they've implemented hardware charge binning, with extra registers at the top and bottom that bin R with R, G with G, B with B. The same structure allows live preview extraction.

The 44x33 mm chip presented resembles the P30+ size rather closely  

[a href=\"http://www.dalsa.com/pi/documents/documents.asp]http://www.dalsa.com/pi/documents/documents.asp[/url]

- Selectable resolution
- Four times sensitivity
- Three times faster readout
+ 6dB SNR gain in photon noise regime.
+ 12dB SNR gain in read noise regime.

Of course, if this is what's done then running at hi-iso would mean dividing the file rez by 4. Useful nevertheless, but not quite what the Phase marketing guys were saying at Photokina (they were saying full rez at hi-iso).

Edmund
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eronald
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« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2006, 10:03:11 AM »
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Note that the above paper was submitted around June 2005, published in December, so time from publication to market is around 12 months. This would imply that anything seriously new announced in December will not hit the market for another year or so. However I'm not sure that a straightforward move to a slightly larger sensor size would count as a publishable innovation  

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 10:03:49 AM by eronald » Logged
Steve Kerman
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« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2006, 04:34:01 PM »
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It occurs to me that it may be quite significant that Hasselblad has driven a stake in the ground and declared 48x36 to be "full-frame."  And they are following up on that decision by releasing lenses that apparently are limited to a 60mm image circle.  This action suggests that they're not expecting any sensors that are larger than 48x36.  Or, alternatively, they've decided that larger sensors won't be important to their marketplace.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 04:34:16 PM by Steve Kerman » Logged
yaya
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« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2006, 04:44:39 PM »
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Of course, current gen is CCD. The discussion topic here is the next gen and I guess we've drifted into technology details because of the rather specialised readership

In the mean time, speaking of current generation (since Photokina), here is a document which might explain what the Phase+ backs do. It would seem that they've implemented hardware charge binning, with extra registers at the top and bottom that bin R with R, G with G, B with B. The same structure allows live preview extraction.

The 44x33 mm chip presented resembles the P30+ size rather closely  

http://www.dalsa.com/pi/documents/documents.asp

- Selectable resolution
- Four times sensitivity
- Three times faster readout
+ 6dB SNR gain in photon noise regime.
+ 12dB SNR gain in read noise regime.

Of course, if this is what's done then running at hi-iso would mean dividing the file rez by 4. Useful nevertheless, but not quite what the Phase marketing guys were saying at Photokina (they were saying full rez at hi-iso).

Edmund
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Edmund just making sure you are aware that current Phase backs use Kodak chips rather than Dalsa. According to [a href=\"http://phaseone.com/upload/pplus.pdf]http://phaseone.com/upload/pplus.pdf[/url] the + series is still based on the same chips.

The 44x33 mm chip presented is actually the one used in the Aptus 65



Yair
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 04:45:44 PM by yaya » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2006, 02:15:39 AM »
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Edmund just making sure you are aware that current Phase backs use Kodak chips rather than Dalsa. According to http://phaseone.com/upload/pplus.pdf the + series is still based on the same chips.

The 44x33 mm chip presented is actually the one used in the Aptus 65
Yair
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Yair,
 
My apologies !!! Indeed, the sensor described is incorporated in your company's most excellent Aptus 65. So time from publication to market is very small.

Edmund
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BJL
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« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2006, 10:44:54 AM »
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It occurs to me that it may be quite significant that Hasselblad has driven a stake in the ground and declared 48x36 to be "full-frame."  And they are following up on that decision by releasing lenses that apparently are limited to a 60mm image circle.  This action suggests that they're not expecting any sensors that are larger than 48x36.  Or, alternatively, they've decided that larger sensors won't be important to their marketplace.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80743\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Indeed! If people were to look at what the camera and sensor makers are actually doing and saying, the picture is very clear and consistent:

Sensor sizes have maxed out, and the dominant trend now is adapting lens systems to get the most out of the various current sensor sizes.

In most cases, that means adding some lenses at shorter focal lengths, to recover wide angle coverage. With Canon it means a lot of that (EF-S lenses) and also some upgrading its high end 35mm format lens collection to get the most out of its current and future 35mm format sensors.
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BJL
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« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2006, 10:55:51 AM »
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Yair,
    I like the graphics at that link http://phaseone.com/upload/pplus.pdf comparing sensor sizes to the 645 frame. It suggests to me that the 1.1x size crop from the 645 frame (42.5x56mm) to Kodak's 36.8x49.1mm is not very significant.

For comparison, slide frames can take up to about 1mm of frame length and width, which for 24x36mm format is a crop of about half this much (percentage-wise) in the 24mm dimension.
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free1000
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« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2006, 11:51:55 AM »
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Please can we insist that Dalsa get a nice uniform quality on their 33Mp sensors before they start making higher resolution ones.

I for one am prepared to upgrade my back when it increases in quality and speed rather than purely in terms of pixel count.

There is plenty of potential for innovation in 1) reducing noise 2) improving architecture (ie: other than bayer) 3) Improving DR 4) improving performance.

So lets make sure that we keep insisting that more pixels is not the only issue. Particularly when optics are barely able to keep up with current pixel pitches.
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