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Author Topic: Leaf,Phase Sinar owners  (Read 10478 times)
mcfoto
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« on: October 16, 2006, 02:19:44 AM »
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Hi
This is an open question due to the recent changes with Hasselblad. The reason why I am asking is that most people use Hasselblad H cameras, however in this form over 50% use Leaf, Phase and Sinar. I think a lot of people would be interested if you are going to switch from Hasselblad to either Mamiya or Rollie in the future. or are you going to stay with Blad and switch to Imacon? This is an open question for owners.
Thanks Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2006, 03:49:38 AM »
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Hi Denis

I think this is a very important question and most relevant to those on this forum.  I know nothing at this stage about the facts and figures, other than Michael mentioning that there are ONLY 10,000 backs around the world.  I was very surprised about this and it seems to me that this market is extremely small for the number of manufacturers in this very specialised field.  So much so that I cannot believe that more manufacturers must fall by the wayside or focus their business elsewhere!!

One could argue that the economies of scale and lower prices could increase this market to sustain all of the current players in this market.  Unfortunately I cannot see this to be the case with an ever improving DSLR market snapping at its heels.  When 16 bit is available and the lenses are redeveloped and improved for truely digital use, I can see the further demise of the MFDB market.  I would never predict that it will disappear completely, just become even more specialised than it is at the moment.  It is staggering what has been achieved in the last ten years and it will be more so in the next ten.  That's just the exponential curve of technology.

You argue the advantages of Leaf being back by Kodak and other take overs etc etc most of which I can't keep up with.  But what concerns me mostly is that these big players could perhaps more easily pull the plug.  The R&D must be phenominal for such a small market, though I understand that defence or whatever may pick up the tab for this part.

Anyway, with all that said, the bottom line for me is who is still going to be in this market place in five years time.  I am about to spend a considerable amount of my own money on a product that will satisfy all of my needs and probably much more.  If it can do that today then it will still be able to do that in five or ten years time I am absolutely sure.  There will be many better products on the market then which I might upgrade to but maybe not.  However if that manufacturer is no longer around then I would then have a big problem.

There have been many instances in the commercial history where the better product has not won the day.  I would be very interested in some facts and figures on all the companies in this market.  How many make healthy profits? How many companies does this forum think will still be concentrating on this particular buisness in five or ten years time.  That for me is the biggest issue in my consideration of which product to purchase.

Keep up the good work.

Regards

Steve Townsend
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yaya
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2006, 04:55:41 AM »
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Steve hi,

Michael's 10,000 quote is referring to an anual unit sales figure of MFDB. The anual growth is said to be 25-30%.
The existing install base is probably 4-5 times that figure.

Take an average of $20K per unit and you get the idea of how much money is exchanging hands within a year.

Even if these figures are 200% more than what the real ones are (some companies are privately owned and some belong to large corporates therefore actual figures are not made public), This is still a substantial amount by any standard.

DSLR technology as you said is also moving forward but looking back 5-7 years, the gap between DSLR in terms of image quality and flexibility is sustained.

Just look at the number of new Large Format cameras that were announced this last Photokina, all designed to work specifically with MFBDs...

Assuming that all the players are making healthy profits, there is no reason why the owner/s (be it a person, a bank, a VC or a corporate) will pull the plug, as long as this profit (or larger) is being made in 5-10 years time.

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Creo UK Ltd., a subsidiary of Kodak.
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Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com

Please notice my email address has changed to yair.shahar@kodak.com please update your contacts thanks!!!
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LMO
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2006, 05:30:51 AM »
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I am only a user/photographer, but from what I can gather it seems to be a very good time for MFDB manufacturers now. At least it seems so here in Norway.

Photography is moving more towards photography again, and the "thrill" of digital is much gone.
Many photographers sold their MF kit and bought Canons/Nikons some years ago, it seems the same (and new, like me) photographers are now moving back to MF. Some are even dusting off their Sinars..  

The ones that did buy MFDBs earlier are now upgrading their backs, so there is even new sales to existing users.

And with the hints from Photokina. It seems now is a very interesting time for us all. I use a leaf and see no reason to change. Not at this time. It works now, and I need it to work now. In a year or two.. who knows ? The marked might be totaly different again when that time comes..

As for the manufacturers,I guess they all have money in the bank or owners with money in the bank. As long as there is a possibility to get a good profit, why should the back out ?

Keep buing Lego for your kids, and Phase One should atleast stay in business I guess  

Lasse
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 05:42:14 AM by LMO » Logged

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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2006, 06:25:59 AM »
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Quote
The reason why I am asking is that most people use Hasselblad H cameras,

Most? It is currently less than 20% on the poll. The vast majority of us don't use the H system.
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2006, 08:48:50 AM »
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Sinar/Eyelike backs have always been available with change able mounts, we already see images of the Sinar camera unsuprisingly supporting a sinar back

------------

It must be very hard to choose a system now

For those who need a back now but are interested in the forthcoming Hy6 then it must be sinar/eyelike

For those set on another system the choices are no different - Xept with blad setting ones mind on being a blad user forever is now a harder choice

Current back owners will probably stick with the system that supports thier back, future owners will be aware that choice is closing down

SMM
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2006, 09:49:50 PM »
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IF they stop making new lenses that will fit the H1/2 system, I am selling my Hassy stuff.  It will provide me with enough distrust that the H3D system might be changed again in a couple of years making all the lenses and accessories obsolete.  Mark

Quote
Hi
This is an open question due to the recent changes with Hasselblad. The reason why I am asking is that most people use Hasselblad H cameras, however in this form over 50% use Leaf, Phase and Sinar. I think a lot of people would be interested if you are going to switch from Hasselblad to either Mamiya or Rollie in the future. or are you going to stay with Blad and switch to Imacon? This is an open question for owners.
Thanks Denis Montalbetti
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2006, 10:23:30 PM »
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Quote
IF they stop making new lenses that will fit the H1/2 system, I am selling my Hassy stuff. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80786\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have sold mine last Sunday...

Cheers,
Bernard
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James Russell
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« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2006, 12:52:29 AM »
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Quote
Sinar/Eyelike backs have always been available with change able mounts, we already see images of the Sinar camera unsuprisingly supporting a sinar back

------------

It must be very hard to choose a system now

For those who need a back now but are interested in the forthcoming Hy6 then it must be sinar/eyelike

For those set on another system the choices are no different - Xept with blad setting ones mind on being a blad user forever is now a harder choice

Current back owners will probably stick with the system that supports thier back, future owners will be aware that choice is closing down

SMM
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I can understand if current H-1/2 owners see their investment limited, but when you step back and look at it, I doubt if that is the case.  Sure there is a loss if you bought new and now decide to sell used, but that's the same with most any cameras,  film or digital, past or present.

Actually when the H-1 came out I was amazed at the number of people that bought it even though they weren't that overly thirlled by it, for the sole reason of it was one of the few remaining new systems.

To me, not being new is a plus, not a minus.  New, as we are seeing, has agendas of firmware changes and moving people to all in one solutions, probably every 18 months.

I think I bought my Contax the week after they announced the end of production and one of the specific reasons was because they were going out of production.  I knew there would be no firmware upgrades to move me to a Contax branded back, or a new lens or finder that only worked with the new system.

Though in honest truth I bought the Contax because I liked it much better than the H-1, mostly because of the build quality and that  it was a focal plane shutter and offered almost unlimited lens choices, with and without adpaters.  With the Contax I can go tilt shift soft , to uber sharp commercial, all with a change of the lens, autofocus to wide open F2 manual.  I just felt that since it had a digital interface and didn't require cords it was a good bet.

Also the price was right.  People continue to complain about the cost of medium format digital, but if I sold my Two Contax's, lenses and the A-22 back I have used for almost 2 years I probably would be out less than $4,000 which is pretty much the depreciation of a 1ds2 in 2 years.

In fact I think some of the Contax items have actually gone up from the price I originally paid.

If Hasselblad does close off thier system, then I would imagine the H-1/H-2 will do the same in price and even if they don't they will work as well today as they did two months ago.

Even today I can buy or rent almost anyting in any major market for the Contax as I could when it was new and I assume you can do the same with the H series for a few more years at minimum.

Still, to me the first thought is to buy the camera and lens system you want to use and then find the film (digital back) you want to use it with.

I see this as a very good time for photography and would think mfdb's really are in a great position.  Many of us, (myself included) really gained our knowledge with the dslrs and though they are quite good I think we realized there was more we could pursue using a mfdb.

Now that the backs are getting faster in speed, better previews and higher iso, I think the need for a dslr is getting less and less.

Last year I only used my 1ds2 for some specilized projects and as a backup and this week take delivery of my second Aptus, so the dslrs will even see less use if any.

JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
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vgogolak
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« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2006, 06:48:17 PM »
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Quote
I
I think I bought my Contax the week after they announced the end of production and one of the specific reasons was because they were going out of production.  I knew there would be no firmware upgrades to move me to a Contax branded back, or a new lens or finder that only worked with the new system.

Though in honest truth I bought the Contax because I liked it much better than the H-1, mostly because of the build quality and that  it was a focal plane shutter and offered almost unlimited lens choices, with and without adpaters.  With the Contax I can go tilt shift soft , to uber sharp commercial, all with a change of the lens, autofocus to wide open F2 manual.  I just felt that since it had a digital interface and didn't require cords it was a good bet.

Also the price was right.  People continue to complain about the cost of medium format digital, but if I sold my Two Contax's, lenses and the A-22 back I have used for almost 2 years I probably would be out less than $4,000 which is pretty much the depreciation of a 1ds2 in 2 years.

In fact I think some of the Contax items have actually gone up from the price I originally paid.



JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have had the Contax system from Kodak days when I got one of the first contax backs.I built up a good lens collection..

I then agonized over the P25 upgrade, when Contax was on the way out (we all knew Kyocera was pullingout), I had a few Hassy V lenses (30, 50) and was really pleased.

So I went with Contax on P25.

Now two years later, I have added a bunch of terrific lenses, including the Contax 350mm and several Hassy's also Hartblei.

Not only that I have Leica R9/DMR and guess what, I get to use the hasselblad there too!

I recently tried the P45 vs P25 and (sorry Michael) found the glass holds up well. Maybe the 210 is a bit soft, not the 80 Contax or the 120 Makro
and the hassey's are even better (I did a P25 vs P45 vs DMR all with the 180mm hasselblad)

Again,I can change mount, but to what?
mamiya (sorry, no wayyy :-),
Hassey 500? Not when I get FOCUS CONFIRMATION OF HASSYlenses on the Contax!
H3D (and yes, I could afford the loses and just do it) again, why?

And the new Hy6? well, MF Zeiss glass ok but no better than what I have (for a clumsy desig, the contax with P25 and 80mm lens is SMALLER feel and look than the R9/DMR with a 50mm lens !)

And there are still Contax mounts for Alpa, Cambo (ok not horseman swd,)

AND I get to use all the schneider Rodenstock on say an Alpa ($4000 for the TC
and cables and mounts)

soooo, not to drive up prices but I have battery holders, lenses, extra body, two viewfinders and 10 years serice from contax and zeiss

I am getting P45plus, can hardly justify that based on the great P25 files, but hey, this is the next plateau.

So even if there are NO MORE BACKS I could care less, In fact, without the distraction of the D--n technology, maybe I will get in more image making..
I'm pretty happy

:-)

Regards
Victor
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 06:52:18 PM by vgogolak » Logged
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