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Author Topic: closing of DMF  (Read 8017 times)
BJL
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« on: October 23, 2006, 06:26:41 PM »
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Much has been said about the H3 closing the H series the third party backs, with perhaps the main point being that one will have to buy an Imacon digital back in order to buy an H3 body, even if other back makers could then make their backs work on it.

Meanwhile the new Rollei/Sinar/Jenoptik/Leaf Hv6/AFi project is described as an open option.

However, it seems that the only way to buy any of these new Rollei based cameras will be in a kit of body with digital back. If so, the main difference from Hasselblad-Imacon's approach is that two different back makers are bundling the same body with their backs. So unless you see a point in owning several digital different backs to use with the same body, there might not be much difference. Is the choice of two brands of back (Sinar/Jenoptik and Leaf) enough to outweigh the far more limited selection of AF lenses currently available for the Rollei system?

And where does this leave Phase One backs? The recently announced collaboration with Mamiya suggests to me that there will soon be a similar bundling of Phase One backs with a Mamiya body, an update of the 645 AFD more fully and specifically integrated with the Phase One backs, and probably with the "645" removed from its name.

If so, maybe no future models of medium format bodies will be sold as separate units, or designed for easy use with third party backs: instead they will all come only as components bundled with digital backs. The H2, 6008AF and 645 AFD might be the last "open backed" bodies (apart from some manual focus bodies still available.)

I wonder how long any of those open backed MF bodies will stay on the market?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 06:27:07 PM by BJL » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2006, 06:36:19 PM »
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I am certain you will be able to buy a Hy6 on its own. It is still useable as a film camera, after all, and people need to buy backups.

I'm also 90% sure that Phase One will support the Hy6.
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2006, 06:42:43 PM »
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And where does this leave Phase One backs? The recently announced collaboration with Mamiya suggests to me that there will soon be a similar bundling of Phase One backs with a Mamiya body, an update of the 645 AFD more fully and specifically integrated with the Phase One backs, and probably with the "645" removed from its name.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81864\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

1. unless you're a wedding guy, honestly, who would really desire a mamiya 645 camera? i mean really. be serious. reminds me of the schoolyard, when you'd pick teams, and there'd be one runt guy left to choose, that no one else wanted -- zits on his face, bony knees, and ran with a limp. that kid's name was mamiya 645. phase is really blowing it if they solely get in bed with mamiya. but sadly, it might be their only choice.

2. you guys are all excited about this rollei camera, but how many people are going to pay $3000-$5000 for every single lens in their bag? plus, can you imagine how many bugs there will be in the first version? and what will the software be? i'm betting on that rollei/leaf camera being ready for a real job in the year 2008, if then. it's one thing to hire some cad designer to do an illustration of a camera; it's quite another to make it actually work, and provide software and service for it, and then get cheap-ass photographers to write the check for it. don't hold your breath on this camera system.

3. personally, i'm thumbs up on hasselblad/imacon/fuji pulling this very ballsy business decision. at least you've got a company willing to walk the walk. there are a zillion H1's out there in rental, and that alone will keep fujicon standing for a good long while. and who knows -- maybe this software and hardware pairing might be a good thing, especially if you were an architectural shooter. i'm saying that hasselblad will be standing tall, when phase is still trying to get a workable lcd, and leaf is trying to come up with some usable software. and as canon has clearly proven -- there are far less error messages when you make the front end AND the back end of the cow.

4. phase gets up every morning now, with sweat on its forehead, wondering if hasselcon has announced the discontinuation of the H2. that, to me, is a pretty pitiful business model. all hasselcon has to do is pull the plug on the h2 and there's going to be some scurrying in denmark.
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Nick_T
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2006, 06:51:15 PM »
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Much has been said about the H3 closing the H series the third party backs, with perhaps the main point being that one will have to buy an Imacon digital back in order to buy an H3 body, even if other back makers could then make their backs work on it.


There is no such thing as an "H3" body.

If you want a platform for a non-hasselblad back you can buy an H2.

Despite rumours to the contrary the H2 is alive and well, the H2D will be discontinued, replaced by the H3D but NOT the H2, otherwise what would you put a CFMS39 on?

Nick-T
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2006, 06:58:02 PM »
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can you imagine how many bugs there will be in the first version? and what will the software be?

It's basically a Rolleo 6008 AF MkII. It's not a greenfield project, and the makers have only made very reliable cameras in the past. I don't know why this camera is seen as so experimental by some.
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paul_jones
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2006, 08:48:40 PM »
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It's basically a Rolleo 6008 AF MkII. It's not a greenfield project, and the makers have only made very reliable cameras in the past. I don't know why this camera is seen as so experimental by some.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81873\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

a guy i know handled the hy6 at photokina, he said it was mostly funtional- not just a model or prototype. the back wasnt rotating(except by removing and remounting), but the rest of the camera was mechanically working.

i think the main plastic tooling(the expensive part) has been done, so i think its quite a bit further than a cad drawing.

paul
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2006, 08:58:39 PM »
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a guy i know handled the hy6 at photokina, he said it was mostly funtional- not just a model or prototype.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

if i remember correctly, didn't someone also say that about the mamiya ZD once?
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rethmeier
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2006, 09:59:28 PM »
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PhagueName,
chill-out!
There are lots of pros that don't mind shelling out $3-$5 K for a lens!
If it does the job,who cares how much a lens cost!

Also,the main reason why there are that many H1's out there,because something like the Hy6
doesn't exist.

Believe me,if Phase comes on board as well,the Hy6 will sell as hotcakes.

I'll be buying one for sure!

Cheers,

Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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paul_jones
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2006, 10:38:35 PM »
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if i remember correctly, didn't someone also say that about the mamiya ZD once?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


the zd is a massive undertaking, the hy6 is easy in comparision. its really just a repackaged rollei.
the digital backs (the complicated part) are already worked out and there.

the mamiya was a completly different body design than they had ever done before and they needed to get the chip and electronics to work as well as all the software from scatch. its taken the rest of the backs years to workout all this out.

paul jones
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rethmeier
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« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2006, 11:34:26 PM »
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Well said Paul!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 11:34:59 PM by rethmeier » Logged

Willem Rethmeier
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James Russell
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2006, 12:55:30 AM »
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There is no such thing as an "H3" body.

If you want a platform for a non-hasselblad back you can buy an H2.

Despite rumours to the contrary the H2 is alive and well, the H2D will be discontinued, replaced by the H3D but NOT the H2, otherwise what would you put a CFMS39 on?

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81872\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Nick,

Here is where the confusion is, or the corporate direction (from the hasselblad website on the H-2)

Digital compatibility: All Ixpress, Ixpress CF and Ixpress CFH digital backs. 3rd party digital backs approved by Hasselblad for H1 can be used on H2 in order to obtain the functionality similar to that of the H1

From the old Contax USA website:

Digital Back Accommodation Because its the most popular medium format camera in the world, there are more than 20 digital backs available from virtually every manufacturer in the industry. Contax was the first camera to offer inter-connectivity with digital backs.

Agenda or not, it Hasselblad could easily say it's an open platform, or a "willing" open platform, but when they or anyone starts with modifiers like "approved", then it all gets suspect.

You know as well as I, being upfront is easy when it's the truth.

If Hasselblad really plans on continuing the H-2 then why not state it.  If Hasselblad currently supports 2 or 3 or 20 digital backs, then state that.

Obviously Contax did not have a digital agenda, hence their direction was to state that their camera was open to almost every digital back.


JR
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PatrikR
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2006, 02:00:42 AM »
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For medium format camera systems modularity has been one of their fundamental and most important features. It has been the idea of all these systems. One could say that the more modular the system the more popular it has been. To be able to change lenses, backs, polaroidbacks, viewfinders and so on has been synonymous to a professional camera kit. However most often these parts have been bought from one manufacturer.

But a fundamental feature has been modularity. H1 and H2 goes into this category and that's how they have been sold and marketed. H3D doesn't.

Suddenly there's a lot of commotion over the closing of the system. I don't get it either and like it even less. I have an year old H1 with 4 lenses and accessories and a P30 back.

Some argue that the camera is going to be as good ten years from today as it is today but this is an unfair comparison since I'm not shooting film and I don't expect to shoot more than 2 years with P30 - if even that. I have an old 202FA which still is as good as when it was new some 10 years ago but it's totally obsolete since no digital backs exists to it.

I have invested heavily into Hasselblad H system and now I've been told that no more new lenses for you or new R&D. The same 202FA thing is happening here. I have bought once again into a system that has no future. This makes me angry. This can be only corrected by Hasselblad intoducing an open H3.

I'm not an expert of any kind in law issues but there has been similar cases in EU where one manufacturer tries to block third party entry. Hasselblad is closing the medium formats fundamental feature. This must be a huge treath to P1 and Leaf. I hope Hasselblad is on thin ice with this bs atleast leagally. Their slogans even sound like they are selling 600 dollar little cameras. World's First Full Frame DSLR - All I can say is:
[attachment=1088:attachment]
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Ed Jack
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2006, 04:13:38 AM »
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please don't take offense at this, but please cite your back ground, as your e-mail does seem to be big-upping Hasselblad.... almost in "sales speak". Maybe I'm just being cynical and you're genuinely are just a pro photogrpaher looking for the right piece of kit like the rest of us... I apologise in advance in case I am casting aspersions along the lines that you work in Sweeden?!

I think we can all agree that this forum must not degrade in to a pointless slugging match between different sales reps (not that I am accusing you of being one of thoose AND independent sales people are welcome I would have thought).


 Ed


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1. unless you're a wedding guy, honestly, who would really desire a mamiya 645 camera? i mean really. be serious. reminds me of the schoolyard, when you'd pick teams, and there'd be one runt guy left to choose, that no one else wanted -- zits on his face, bony knees, and ran with a limp. that kid's name was mamiya 645. phase is really blowing it if they solely get in bed with mamiya. but sadly, it might be their only choice.

2. you guys are all excited about this rollei camera, but how many people are going to pay $3000-$5000 for every single lens in their bag? plus, can you imagine how many bugs there will be in the first version? and what will the software be? i'm betting on that rollei/leaf camera being ready for a real job in the year 2008, if then. it's one thing to hire some cad designer to do an illustration of a camera; it's quite another to make it actually work, and provide software and service for it, and then get cheap-ass photographers to write the check for it. don't hold your breath on this camera system.

3. personally, i'm thumbs up on hasselblad/imacon/fuji pulling this very ballsy business decision. at least you've got a company willing to walk the walk. there are a zillion H1's out there in rental, and that alone will keep fujicon standing for a good long while. and who knows -- maybe this software and hardware pairing might be a good thing, especially if you were an architectural shooter. i'm saying that hasselblad will be standing tall, when phase is still trying to get a workable lcd, and leaf is trying to come up with some usable software. and as canon has clearly proven -- there are far less error messages when you make the front end AND the back end of the cow.

4. phase gets up every morning now, with sweat on its forehead, wondering if hasselcon has announced the discontinuation of the H2. that, to me, is a pretty pitiful business model. all hasselcon has to do is pull the plug on the h2 and there's going to be some scurrying in denmark.
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eronald
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2006, 05:51:15 AM »
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Actually, another guy I know, namely ME (!) also saw and handled the thing at Photokina. There were several of them, actually, in different states of completion, I think I saw several that could focus manually,  but the electronics eg. displays etc weren't built in, they too were mockups. If your friend has a different opinion to mine, that's his privilege.

 Oh, by the way, I also talked twice to the CEO of the the company that intends to make these things. He said that after Photokina they were going to tool up for production. I would expect this thing to hit the streets next year Q2-Q3 if all goes well, but some delay might occur - as to what the final specs are after Photokina, who knows ? It was very smart of Rollei to expose the dummies to the Photokina crowds, that will make the handling of the final model better. And the Phase announcement ? Well it seems to be absent for now.

Edmund

 
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a guy i know handled the hy6 at photokina, he said it was mostly funtional- not just a model or prototype. the back wasnt rotating(except by removing and remounting), but the rest of the camera was mechanically working.

i think the main plastic tooling(the expensive part) has been done, so i think its quite a bit further than a cad drawing.

paul
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khwanaon
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2006, 05:53:58 AM »
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a guy i know handled the hy6 at photokina, he said it was mostly funtional- not just a model or prototype. the back wasnt rotating(except by removing and remounting), but the rest of the camera was mechanically working.

i think the main plastic tooling(the expensive part) has been done, so i think its quite a bit further than a cad drawing.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I confirm: I did handle myself the Hy6 at Sinar's booth, and it handled well. It is already functioning well and most probably in production already, with little changes from Photokina feedbacks to be applied.

Aon
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2006, 06:00:04 AM »
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Actually, another guy I know, namely ME (!) also saw and handled the thing at Photokina. There were several of them, actually, in different states of completion, I think I saw several that could focus manually,  but the electronics eg. displays etc weren't built in, they too were mockups. If your friend has a different opinion to mine, that's his privilege.

 Oh, by the way, I also talked twice to the CEO of the the company that intends to make these things. He said that after Photokina they were going to tool up for production. I would expect this thing to hit the streets next year Q2-Q3 if all goes well, but some delay might occur - as to what the final specs are after Photokina, who knows ? It was very smart of Rollei to expose the dummies to the Photokina crowds, that will make the handling of the final model better. And the Phase announcement ? Well it seems to be absent for now.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81935\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund, to answer you:

I have been seeing a working model at Sinar's booth, with full functionality and electronics built in and full display information, with an eMotion 75 attached and taking pics, with AF working as well (although only in 3 positions). This was the only working Hy6 model in the whole exhibition: all the rest displayed were dummies.

Aon
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2006, 06:14:24 AM »
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1. unless you're a wedding guy, honestly, who would really desire a mamiya 645 camera? i mean really. be serious. reminds me of the schoolyard, when you'd pick teams, and there'd be one runt guy left to choose, that no one else wanted -- zits on his face, bony knees, and ran with a limp. that kid's name was mamiya 645. phase is

I think you are on the wrong forum. Perhaps you meant to post this at dpreview?
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eronald
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2006, 06:37:40 AM »
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That is reassuring. There were actually a lot of mockups floating around between Sinar, Leaf and Rollei.

 Maybe they will rebrand it as Leica ? Then there would be a Panasonic-Leica and a Sinar-Leica.

Edmund

Quote
Edmund, to answer you:

I have been seeing a working model at Sinar's booth, with full functionality and electronics built in and full display information, with an eMotion 75 attached and taking pics, with AF working as well (although only in 3 positions). This was the only working Hy6 model in the whole exhibition: all the rest displayed were dummies.

Aon
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khwanaon
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2006, 06:49:35 AM »
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That is reassuring. There were actually a lot of mockups floating around between Sinar, Leaf and Rollei.

 Maybe they will rebrand it as Leica ? Then there would be a Panasonic-Leica and a Sinar-Leica.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81944\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are right, but who cares, if it is a good camera fulfilling the market's needs and with an open system.

Aon
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pprdigital
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 09:00:40 AM »
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Nick,

Here is where the confusion is, or the corporate direction (from the hasselblad website on the H-2)

Digital compatibility: All Ixpress, Ixpress CF and Ixpress CFH digital backs. 3rd party digital backs approved by Hasselblad for H1 can be used on H2 in order to obtain the functionality similar to that of the H1

From the old Contax USA website:

Digital Back Accommodation Because it’s the most popular medium format camera in the world, there are more than 20 digital backs available from virtually every manufacturer in the industry. Contax was the first camera to offer inter-connectivity with digital backs.

Agenda or not, it Hasselblad could easily say it's an open platform, or a "willing" open platform, but when they or anyone starts with modifiers like "approved", then it all gets suspect.

You know as well as I, being upfront is easy when it's the truth.

If Hasselblad really plans on continuing the H-2 then why not state it.  If Hasselblad currently supports 2 or 3 or 20 digital backs, then state that.

Obviously Contax did not have a digital agenda, hence their direction was to state that their camera was open to almost every digital back.
JR
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Contax did not have a digital agenda - that's why they're out of business.

I believe the "approval" statement comes down to the issue of licensing. I do not know this factually, but what I believe is that licensing issues have not been resolved between 3rd party digital backs and Hasselblad for the H2 - only the H1. Certainly, Hasselblad - as I've said - could do a better job of communicating this issue.

Contax never had any licensing issues because it was in their overwhelming best interest to have as many digital backs as possible for their camera. Good for end users, and good for Contax, but not ultimately, as their failure to develop a digital platform put them out of business.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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