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Author Topic: Leaf statement: digital sensors & WA photography  (Read 11750 times)
rainer_v
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2006, 06:56:29 PM »
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Hi Rainer,

I was editing my previous post to be a little more complete while you were replying at the same time.  My Dalsa 22mp chip had color casts.  Always subtle, always hard to spot.  I often find that with the Dalsa 75 chip that I do not see the color casts until I have run the Custom Gain Adjuster and compare the images back and forth in the preview window of Bridge.  Please don't take this as any kind of criticism.  I feel most of my photos shot with the 22 sensor have a little cast here or there which no one else notices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82106\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i was working with two 22mp dalsas,- one was looking completely even ( the one i used for the photokina shots ),-  the other sensor has had a far more uneven color reproduction,- although still subtle.
therefore the first chip could not work without strong radial discolorations under fluorescent light sources ( i also saw this with kodak sensors ),- the second one ( which is my actual one ) renders fluorescent sources without any radial shifts.
so the sensors seem to act  different, in its specs which are wide enough to bring that visible differences out. but..... just to remember......good old 4x5" shooting was not absolute "color-cast-free" also,- if one has used superwides under 90mm and good eyes or grey walls.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 07:11:48 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2006, 08:05:27 PM »
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"good old 4x5" shooting was not absolute "color-cast-free" also,- if one has used superwides under 90mm and good eyes or grey walls."

-absolutely, and I am very glad to be rid of this.  I often did not realize the color casts in the 4x5 shots until I used scanning software to remove it.

I like the ability to produce images free of any color casts from the sensor, or the lenses, by using the Gain adjuster, whether it is Stephan's or Leaf's.  The ability to remove light fall-off in the adjuster is also a very welcome change from having to use center filters.

As long as we are wandering off topic... How does your sensor respond to flourescent light?  Do you use Input profiles specific to flourescent light souces?  Do you create you own custom profiles?  Just interested.

-Eric
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khwanaon
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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2006, 10:50:26 PM »
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Rainer,

I wasn't refering to the photographic qulaity of those prints since they were very pretty. However they did show some significant purple/ magenta/ green cast, which lead me to believe that they were from the "pre Stephan" period.


Yair

Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com
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Yaya,

I'd like to answer on this one, having seen myself the prints in question at Sinar's booth during Photokina. I must say that I wonder why you are first stating that the images have a problem, than all of a sudden claiming (and misleading readers) that there is a noticeable green/magenta color cast: where could you notice any green/magenta color cast in these prints?! They are absolutely "neutral", from one side to the other, and am pretty sure that a RGB info would show that there is neither a magenta nor green cast, rather a blueish/yellowish cast, which HAS NOTHING to do with our SENSOR issues, but is directly related to the lens/optical.

I have to say here, that I am using the eMotion 75 as well, and the tools provide by Stephan Hess for the Captureshop files are just fantastic, with a speedy worklow which isn't less (fantastic)! Such centrefold and color casts issues are definitively the past with the eMotion backs.

What surprises me, is your statement about the competition, which is unfair and out of the blue, without any serious prove. Is that just to discredit the competition? In my opinion it is not the right way to solve one's own problems. As Rainer puts it rightly: just make a side by side test between the eMotion 75 and the Aptus 75, and your eyes will open. As I said in a previous post: often one does not see a color cast in a file, when not compared side by side with the same file corrected. Only when one has the 2 files side by side can the difference be noticed: I am saying this by experience.

What surprises me even more, is like Rainer says, that there is absolutely NO clear statement on the centrefold issue and more important, that you are stating in your post that this happens only with shifted situations: absolutely wrong, as mentioned by Rainer. Just push a bit your tonal curve and you may see it clearly, and not only with WA lenses, as stated. Just shoot on a neutral grey background and see the result.

Aon
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ericstaud
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« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2006, 11:28:12 PM »
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Yaya,

I'd like to answer on this one, having seen myself the prints in question at Sinar's booth during Photokina. I must say that I wonder why you are first stating that the images have a problem, than all of a sudden claiming (and misleading readers) that there is a noticeable green/magenta color cast: where could you notice any green/magenta color cast in these prints?! They are absolutely "neutral", from one side to the other, and am pretty sure that a RGB info would show that there is neither a magenta nor green cast, rather a blueish/yellowish cast, which HAS NOTHING to do with our SENSOR issues, but is directly related to the lens/optical.

I have to say here, that I am using the eMotion 75 as well, and the tools provide by Stephan Hess for the Captureshop files are just fantastic, with a speedy worklow which isn't less (fantastic)! Such centrefold and color casts issues are definitively the past with the eMotion backs.

What surprises me, is your statement about the competition, which is unfair and out of the blue, without any serious prove. Is that just to discredit the competition? In my opinion it is not the right way to solve one's own problems. As Rainer puts it rightly: just make a side by side test between the eMotion 75 and the Aptus 75, and your eyes will open. As I said in a previous post: often one does not see a color cast in a file, when not compared side by side with the same file corrected. Only when one has the 2 files side by side can the difference be noticed: I am saying this by experience.

What surprises me even more, is like Rainer says, that there is absolutely NO clear statement on the centrefold issue and more important, that you are stating in your post that this happens only with shifted situations: absolutely wrong, as mentioned by Rainer. Just push a bit your tonal curve and you may see it clearly, and not only with WA lenses, as stated. Just shoot on a neutral grey background and see the result.

Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The competition is clearly about the backs with the Kodak sensors versus the Dalsa sensors.  The original post could not be comparing the Leaf back to the eMotion backs, because the eMotion backs do not suffer from the color uniformity issues with retro-focal lenses which the post addresses.

There is no clear statement on the Centerfold issue?Huh  How bout  this one from the first post:
    "("centerfold" line) which is a specific anomaly that we expect to solve"

It could not be anymore clear.

As for the prints at Kina.  I assume that Yair was saying someting about the prints that he felt Rainer would agree with.  We are in the Dalsa boat together.  I would give Yair some empathy and understanding here.  He is one of the most respectful and helpful posters on Luminous Landscape.

To make an objective judgement on the print issue I will need Rainer to send me several of these large prints so that I can make a closer, long term evaluation
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 11:31:02 PM by ericstaud » Logged
khwanaon
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« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2006, 11:48:18 PM »
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The competition is clearly about the backs with the Kodak sensors versus the Dalsa sensors.  The original post could not be comparing the Leaf back to the eMotion backs, because the eMotion backs do not suffer from the color uniformity issues with retro-focal lenses which the post addresses.

There is no clear statement on the Centerfold issue?Huh  How bout  this one from the first post:
    "("centerfold" line) which is a specific anomaly that we expect to solve"

It could not be anymore clear.

As for the prints at Kina.  I assume that Yair was saying someting about the prints that he felt Rainer would agree with.  We are in the Dalsa boat together.  I would give Yair some empathy and understanding here.  He is one of the most respectful and helpful posters on Luminous Landscape.

To make an objective judgement on the print issue I will need Rainer to send me several of these large prints so that I can make a closer, long term evaluation
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Eric,

With all my respect, in my opinion, the centrefold issue is not clearly addressed in the Leaf statement, rather aknowledged that it is a fact.

Also, for me, stating that "...where our competitors still suffer from non-uniformity" is implying that ALL competitors suffer from it, included the Sinarbacks eMotion. Which is simply un-true and misleading other photographers. As an eMotion user, it is my right to give answer to this, despite the fact that Yaya is a respected poster. I don't think that Sinar has ever posted and spoken against Leaf or other competitors: at least I have never read such. It is one thing to inform one's own customers in a correct way and another thing to claim about the competition, IMO.

Rainer's files: I share the opinion with Stephan, that the judgment of the files by Yaya have been made with the purpose to mislead the readers. Any neutral judgment of these prints would say the contrary, that they are perfect concerning the color cast sensor issue. I agree that you need to have the files in front of you and I myself had it handed-over by Rainer: that is the only reason why I am claiming that they are perfect, with no Magenta/Green cast in it.

But as said, this is only my own opinion.

Aon
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rainer_v
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2006, 01:22:28 AM »
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"good old 4x5" shooting was not absolute "color-cast-free" also,- if one has used superwides under 90mm and good eyes or grey walls."

-absolutely, and I am very glad to be rid of this.  I often did not realize the color casts in the 4x5 shots until I used scanning software to remove it.

I like the ability to produce images free of any color casts from the sensor, or the lenses, by using the Gain adjuster, whether it is Stephan's or Leaf's.  The ability to remove light fall-off in the adjuster is also a very welcome change from having to use center filters.

As long as we are wandering off topic... How does your sensor respond to flourescent light?  Do you use Input profiles specific to flourescent light souces?  Do you create you own custom profiles?  Just interested.

-Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

same experience than me about 4x5".... and the digital files which are corrected with inverted whiteshots are really impressive.

some post above wrote about if the  dalsa users should not eat our hats about the fact that we need now a similar worflow tham phase? usually i dont wear or eat any hats,- but you are right,- me i was complaining a lot of about phase and their colorshifts,- and have to admit now that for my purposes its not a great deal to shoot white referemces, and after i started to appreciate this completely even and grey-uniform files i get out of my lenses,- now i do even  the same if i use the e22 which would not need that treatment so urgent...
BUT ,- how big is that deal depends very much how easy makes the software the handling of the files in pp, and also how clever is the software inverting (  esp. here how are treated the white files ) and subtracting. we tested version after version of the eMotionDNG konverter till the quality of the inversion has met our expactations,- stephan was writing incredible fast update after update ( maybe 20 - 30 or so,- just for the white ref. "treatment"... ).
these ways to treat the whiteref.files have big impact to the final image quality,- it would lead too much to go into this here ( and stephan could do that  far better than me ),- best thing is to try it out and to compare the images. at the moment i think there might be a bigger difference in the resulting quality than one should expect.

about phase:  i dont know enough about the p45. after my understanding there are some advantages from the dalsa sensors... a.e. the handling of backlighted objects or of fine branches or trees ( purple fringing ),- but it could be that i am wrong here and that these "old" kodak problems are solved with the p45. i havent tried one,- but i am 100% that the phase backs wlll deliver also 1.class quality in the right hands.

about fluorescent lights:
i am amazed by the quality the e75 delivers here, and also under mixed light sources.
it is the greatest advantage over the 22 sensor for architecture or interior shooters i.m.o....
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 02:34:37 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2006, 01:57:06 AM »
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Wow!
I thought I would trow in my 2CW.

For an architectural shooter like me,who is about to purchase a MFDB ,it's getting more confusing by the minute.

First it was the Dalsa sensor that would get rid of all the problems that arose with the Phase backs,but like Rainer said,all sensors (Kodak and Dalsa) need some kind of correction before the exposure and after.

It's clearly now even more important to check the work-flow and relevant processors from Leaf,Sinar and Phase.

I think Rainer is certainly on the right track with the e-75 with the help of Stephan Hess.
BTW great shots of the airport Rainer!

However I might beginning to think that the P45+ with the C1 V4 might be an option as well.

At the end of the day,a fashion/portrait shooter might prefer a different back than an architectural shooter.
Same for a still-life guy with a tilt/shift camera.

I am curious how Michael Kravit managed to get a replacement Aptus-75 that shows no color-shifts or centerfold issues with his 24-35 and 47 Schneiders?

Happy shooting !

Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2006, 02:55:13 AM »
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Hi Rainer
Thanks for sharing your superb photos. At the end of the day all this digital stuff is just a tool to make/take photos. I think we sometimes get too carried away with all the technical stuff and forget about the images.
thanks Ivan
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« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2006, 03:09:29 AM »
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Totally correct Ivan!
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2006, 03:37:35 AM »
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I am curious how Michael Kravit managed to get a replacement Aptus-75 that shows no color-shifts or centerfold issues with his 24-35 and 47 Schneiders?

Willem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Like Rainer says:

"i was working with two 22mp dalsas,- one was looking completely even ( the one i used for the photokina shots ),- the other sensor has had a far more uneven color reproduction,- although still subtle.
therefore the first chip could not work without strong radial discolorations under fluorescent light sources ( i also saw this with kodak sensors ),- the second one ( which is my actual one ) renders fluorescent sources without any radial shifts."

So what about quality control? Maybe we should test half a dozen backs of the exact same model, and then decide which one to buy? Does any dealer even have that many backs in stock?

Or complain loud and long, like Michael Kravit  and Boghb did.

Kumar
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rainer_v
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« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2006, 03:52:14 AM »
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Like Rainer says:

"i was working with two 22mp dalsas,- one was looking completely even ( the one i used for the photokina shots ),- the other sensor has had a far more uneven color reproduction,- although still subtle.
therefore the first chip could not work without strong radial discolorations under fluorescent light sources ( i also saw this with kodak sensors ),- the second one ( which is my actual one ) renders fluorescent sources without any radial shifts."

So what about quality control? Maybe we should test half a dozen backs of the exact same model, and then decide which one to buy? Does any dealer even have that many backs in stock?

Or complain loud and long, like Michael Kravit  and Boghb did.

Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82152\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

maybe they would cost again the double if selected with more narrow specs....
furthermore it would have been hard to say which sensor was finally the better one,-
cause each one has had its advantages..
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 03:52:39 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2006, 04:11:34 AM »
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Hello all, again,

I've posted this official statement in order to fulfil a request made by the *public* ever since the initial reports about the centerfold came out.

Such public statements are not a regular event in our industry and I think we will all agree that my agenda here is clear and well stated.

In all fairness, I did not intend to let it develop into a grilling party, although some members of this board, guided by other agendas, would probably love to see this happening.

If I pass any judgement over image quality, this is based on several years of pixel digging, literally and I will do it both internally in Leaf and externally with the competition.

Still this is not supposed to become personal and if anyone is being personally offended, then I apologize all heartedly.

I say we follow Ivan's suggestion and let this topic rest. Anyone who's still after clarifications or additional info, can contact me directly or our support team.

Thanks, yair


[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com
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« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2006, 04:51:29 AM »
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Hello all, again,

I've posted this official statement in order to fulfil a request made by the *public* ever since the initial reports about the centerfold came out.

Such public statements are not a regular event in our industry and I think we will all agree that my agenda here is clear and well stated.

In all fairness, I did not intend to let it develop into a grilling party, although some members of this board, guided by other agendas, would probably love to see this happening.

If I pass any judgement over image quality, this is based on several years of pixel digging, literally and I will do it both internally in Leaf and externally with the competition.

Still this is not supposed to become personal and if anyone is being personally offended, then I apologize all heartedly.

I say we follow Ivan's suggestion and let this topic rest. Anyone who's still after clarifications or additional info, can contact me directly or our support team.

Thanks, yair
[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82158\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi yair again,
without having any wish to eat you ( also for suggestion problems for human meat since several months),- and without wanting to be unfair to you..... but as stephan said before,- maybe in parts its a language problem,- but aside this it could be also that you or your company provocate a little bit to be attacked, simply  for the way how you speak or how you use words which- at least - i interpretated as personal attacks.
so again in this post you apologize that , but immediately you start yout next offense, if you write about some people who are guided by other agendas. you speak about me? if not everythings fine,- if so, i want to tell you that i am not guided by any company.....,- although my good connect to sinar after the last year of shooting is obvious,- 1. because they took over images from me for their advertisement purposes and 2. because they have been opened enough to take over stephans and my investments in a working software solution for the dalsa sensor, which is built in the e75..... i like that and i have my benefit from that,- but i am far away to atttack you or your company because you are a leaf rep, and i am far away to let me "guide" by some company.

i apologize if i took your first comment to my photokina shots a little bit too personal.... but i took it with some humor, didnt i? ,  so was my answer( i still dont see the casts you are seeing ).


 i spent a huge amount of my time cooperating with stephan on the solution of exactly the problems you are naming and having, instead of trying to get one replacement sensor after the other.- LEAF was allways in my eyes for going in your system also, before i finally went with SINAR....
so sorry me that i read carefull if you found now a solution for the cf issue or not.....  i just got  disappointed, thinking i interpretated your statement very well, maybe for knowing something about the flaws you are fighting with and where it seems you are now herein,- but than you tell in the same post that your "competitors" were still behind leaf..... i think thats simply not good style, or at least i dont like it that much.
also its not so far to think that you speak about sinar here.
the problems with the kodak sensors are reallly very different to the dalsas,- and also there are several plus points for phase, so it doesnot sound that logic  just to say they are behind...
 no idea about the imacons. i didnt liked their marketing of their scanners too much cause they name then "drumscanners" and they are not ( so i prefered my real drumscannner over their products )..... thats all i know about that brand.

so i will shut up now here as you were recommending....
have a nice day,- dont take it personal, it is not.
rainer
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 05:08:55 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2006, 05:50:42 AM »
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hi yair again,
without having any wish to eat you ( also for suggestion problems for human meat since several months),- and without wanting to be unfair to you..... but as stephan said before,- maybe in parts its a language problem,- but aside this it could be also that you or your company provocate a little bit to be attacked, simply  for the way how you speak or how you use words which- at least - i interpretated as personal attacks.
so again in this post you apologize that , but immediately you start yout next offense, if you write about some people who are guided by other agendas. you speak about me? if not everythings fine,- if so, i want to tell you that i am not guided by any company.....,- although my good connect to sinar after the last year of shooting is obvious,- 1. because they took over images from me for their advertisement purposes and 2. because they have been opened enough to take over stephans and my investments in a working software solution for the dalsa sensor, which is built in the e75..... i like that and i have my benefit from that,- but i am far away to atttack you or your company because you are a leaf rep, and i am far away to let me "guide" by some company.

i apologize if i took your first comment to my photokina shots a little bit too personal.... but i took it with some humor, didnt i? ,  so was my answer( i still dont see the casts you are seeing ).
 i spent a huge amount of my time cooperating with stephan on the solution of exactly the problems you are naming and having, instead of trying to get one replacement sensor after the other.- LEAF was allways in my eyes for going in your system also, before i finally went with SINAR....
so sorry me that i read carefull if you found now a solution for the cf issue or not.....  i just got  disappointed, thinking i interpretated your statement very well, maybe for knowing something about the flaws you are fighting with and where it seems you are now herein,- but than you tell in the same post that your "competitors" were still behind leaf..... i think thats simply not good style, or at least i dont like it that much.
also its not so far to think that you speak about sinar here.
the problems with the kodak sensors are reallly very different to the dalsas,- and also there are several plus points for phase, so it doesnot sound that logic  just to say they are behind...
 no idea about the imacons. i didnt liked their marketing of their scanners too much cause they name then "drumscanners" and they are not ( so i prefered my real drumscannner over their products )..... thats all i know about that brand.

so i will shut up now here as you were recommending....
have a nice day,- dont take it personal, it is not.
rainer
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

well said, Rainer

No need to say that I've felt myself as well concerned by the statement "some people who are guided by other agendas". It seems to me that is it impossible to post here when being a Sinarback user, without being automatically "attacked" by some others. I am asking myself what the precise agenda of these persons are?

I would prefer a forum where technical posts remain what they should be: an information source for other photographers encountering the same or similar problems. Speaking about the competition is fair enough, but not claiming out of the blue and without any prove and with the obvious sole reason to mislead.

Aon
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« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2006, 08:53:04 AM »
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Hi all,

As someone who would like to get a MFDB I have taken a close interest in all the postings on the colour cast and centrefold issues. Maybe someone could clarify why on some models one back will show the faults and another won't. It can't be just a wideangle problem because from what I read other lenses have been giving the problems too. Is it a quality control problem?  If so, that's just astonishing considering the cost of these things. I know these backs are cost effective over a period if you're used to shooting tons of film, but I get the feeling certain manufacturers feel it's nitpicking and annoying to bring these problems to their attention. Hence their reluctance to sometimes even acknowlege them.

All I can say is the manufacturers are not helping themselves by this attitude and I'm sure there are many photographers out there, who like me are reading all this, making notes and are dubious about taking the plunge. If the back makers want  to stay alive then I think they should get their act together and start valuing their customers, present and future.

My two cents too.

Barrie Watts

www.barriewatts.co.uk
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mkravit
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« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2006, 02:57:49 PM »
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I am curious how Michael Kravit managed to get a replacement Aptus-75 that shows no color-shifts or centerfold issues with his 24-35 and 47 Schneiders?
Willem.
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Willem,

I was very persistent with Leaf and waited over 9 weeks for the replacement.
The back I received last week shows absolutely no centerfold with my Digitar 24, 35 and 47 lenses.

As far as I can see, and my vision is not that great, there is no objectionable color shift while using these lenses. Leaf has told me that Dalsa has been working hard to implement engineering revisions with each delivery of new chips.
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« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2006, 03:21:19 PM »
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Willem,

I was very persistent with Leaf and waited over 9 weeks for the replacement.
The back I received last week shows absolutely no centerfold with my Digitar 24, 35 and 47 lenses.

As far as I can see, and my vision is not that great, there is no objectionable color shift while using these lenses. Leaf has told me that Dalsa has been working hard to implement engineering revisions with each delivery of new chips.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82247\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmm, if there is no color shift even with the 24 then people will be falling over each other to get one !

Edmund
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« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2006, 07:38:14 PM »
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Hmm, if there is no color shift even with the 24 then people will be falling over each other to get one !

Edmund
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For a bright guy you need to pay more attention Edmund.

He did NOT say there is no color shift, he said to his eye there is no OBJECTIONABLE color shift.

BTW, which MFDB are you using for your work?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 07:39:48 PM by GhostDancer » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2006, 09:37:03 PM »
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For a bright guy you need to pay more attention Edmund.

He did NOT say there is no color shift, he said to his eye there is no OBJECTIONABLE color shift.

BTW, which MFDB are you using for your work?
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Well, name one single analog film ( yes film, not lens ) which does not produce colour shift to a certain degree.
That there appears to be a chance of getting a Dalsa equipped back without the centerfold issues sounds pretty good to me.

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Leaf has told me that Dalsa has been working hard to implement engineering revisions with each delivery of new chips.
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----> Yair : Thanks a lot for posting the statement; could you tell us about possible improvements made by Dalsa in the recent past to correct the centerfold problems, as reported by Michael K. ?

Thanks again,
Tom
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 09:39:19 PM by Fritzer » Logged
GhostDancer
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« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2006, 10:08:50 PM »
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----> Yair : Thanks a lot for posting the statement; could you tell us about possible improvements made by Dalsa in the recent past to correct the centerfold problems, as reported by Michael K. ?

Thanks again,
Tom
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I would be interested in hearing this as well.

Also I heard in NY today from a couple of guys in one of the retailers showrooms that Leaf will be issuing new firmware upgrade in the next two weeks that will solve the color cast issues.

The talk was that the combination of the centerfold solution and color cast firmware upgrade may give Leaf the cleanest image of all the MFDB's.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 10:11:50 PM by GhostDancer » Logged
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