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Author Topic: Mamiya AFDII or H2??  (Read 5739 times)
zzzone
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« on: October 27, 2006, 02:40:45 AM »
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Two days ago at last I have placed my order for a P25+, a Mamiya 645 and a Horseman SWD.  

However today I am getting cold feet whether I have done the right thing going down the Mamiya route.  I would just like some feedback please from H1/2 and Mamiya AFDII users.

Part of the terms and conditions of my purchase is that, during the period I am loaned a P25 (prior to the + arriving), I am loaned an additional P45 to assess the quality/workflow/storage implications and decide whether I change my order to a P45+.  

I have tested both camera systems but there is nothing like months of use of each one, which many of you will have.

I think my primary concern is with the autofocus, followed by the resolving ability of the Mamiya glassware with a P45, if I end up with that.  (The P25/45 decision will be made with the Horseman)Also what is the forums opinion on resale value in five years time, that is in relative terms to the MFDB with an H mount?  Any other comments would be helpful.

If it was not for recent developments at Hasselblad I think the pros and cons for the H2 purchase over the MAFDII were 60/40 in their favour.  Now the balance stands 51/49 in the Mamiya's favour, or should i write favor!!  Your feedback would be appreciated to tip that balance just a little more in one direction or the other.

(Sorry Yair, Calumet and yourself have been really helpful but the purchase came down to software, workflow and this centrefold issue.)

regards Steve Townsend
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zzzone
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2006, 03:31:32 AM »
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Perhaps I should do one of Edmund's polls on the subject.  

Steve
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mcfoto
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2006, 04:02:28 AM »
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Hi
I have been a user of Mamiya 645 AFD for 7 years now, I have no regrets, I just got an amazing deal on a 120 marco & 35 mm lens. I also own a ZD which I love. I still will rent an Aptus 22 for AD jobs. I own both the AFDII & AFD bodies. I have shot with the H1 on two occasions and as far a lens quality goes I can't really tell the difference. I found the H1 to be really heavy & but the auto focus is a liitle better on the H1. If you compare there AF( H1 & Mamiya) to Canon well Canon wins hands down! At the moment Mamiya is incredible value for the money!!! The new AFDII shutter is better than the previous models plus you can have these cameras repaired locally. They also have a new 28mm & 75-110 lens coming out. They are in talks with Phase One ( see what happens here?). I used to own a 500 cm Blad and sold that kit for my Mamiya 645 AF at the time. Some of our work is posted on the Leaf site under Montalbetti + Campbell (8 photos) and they are all shot with the AFD & AFDII. The AFDII is the model to buy because you can seperate the focus from the shutter release. Hey that my opinion.
Thanks Denis
montalbetticampbell.com
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Denis Montalbetti
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eronald
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2006, 04:19:25 AM »
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Steve, if you buy the value-added option of the Phase back, then you can ask for a free conversion of the back to another camera during the first year. Also, I guess when you do the next upgrade any dealer will do the same, so you ar not completely locked into the mount.

Edmund
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PhaqueName
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2006, 07:05:52 AM »
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Hi
I have been a user of Mamiya 645 AFD for 7 years now, I have no regrets, I just got an amazing deal on a 120 marco & 35 mm lens. I also own a ZD which I love.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

mr. montalbetticampbell,

aren't you sponsored in some way by mamiya? don't you receive either free equipment or discounts on the gear? if you're going to provide advice here, should you not disclose something like this, in order to put some context into your recommendations? full disclosure is always a good thing; it shows more of the full picture.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2006, 09:21:09 AM »
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I am getting cold feet [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82486\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Personally I wouldn go near Mamiya - flash synch is tooooo low

Remeber DB only goes down to 50 or 100 iso unlike film

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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bcroslin
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2006, 09:40:44 AM »
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full disclosure is always a good thing; it shows more of the full picture.
This from a person who doesn't use their real name in posts. If you honestly believed in "full disclosure" you'd let us know who you are and what back and camera you're shooting with. Otherwise, with all due respect - go away.

To address the question - I've been using a Mamiya 645 AFD and I love it. I shoot with the 45, 80 and 150 and I've been very happy with the quality of each. I originally wanted to go the Contax route but since buying the Mamiya I haven't looked back. I often shoot at ISO 25 to control backgrounds when shooting on lights and don't have any problem with 1/125 flash sync. I can't comment on the Hasselblad as I've never shot with one but for bang-for-the-buck the Mamiya wins IMO.
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Bob Croslin, Photographer
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2006, 09:53:05 AM »
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I often shoot at ISO 25 to control backgrounds [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

25 doesnt exist on modern backs and shooting at 'one end' limits exposure correction on some backs

Doesnt mean its all bad - certainly a bargian and if you can handle manual stopdown old shcool lenses there are both a leaf 70 for high synch and a 55 rise and a 24 fish - all good things available at basement prices

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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zzzone
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2006, 10:24:17 AM »
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Hi Edmund, yes I am going for the value added pack.  Just trying to make the right decision now on the camera body.  My primary interest is the back with the Horseman and a view camera.  It just seems that having a MFDB I will probably end up using it more in place of my two Canons, hence the Mamiya purchase.

Thanks Sam, flash sync is not particularly relevant to me.  But accurate and speedy auto focus is important and lenses that can handle the small micron pixels.  And secondly a system that will still be around in five years?

Steve Townsend
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ronno
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2006, 10:31:48 AM »
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One nice thing about the Mamiya stuff is it's reasonably priced

Used 150mm 3.5 AF for $500:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...uyUsed&Q=198146

55-110 zoom for $1100:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...esc&fi=all&pn=2


(p.s. I believe your jig is up Mr. T.)
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2006, 10:57:17 AM »
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flash sync is not particularly relevant to me

Speedy AF

 secondly a system that will still be around in five years?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Flash - horses for courses


I have not used AF2 but the AF the AF was lousy compared to the blad and the sceen much darker

I also PERSONALLY find centerpoint AF a bit dodge as no good on a tripod and no good for close/open work hand held - I will jump to the first system that offers multipoint AF (and synch speed)

I would take abright screen over AF and my blad is twice as bright than my old Mam AF (not D)

As for system compatability - indeed a worry  - I like my eylike sinar back with changeable mount and guarenteed funtion on HY6

Remeber Mam MAY fall over AND there MAY be a pile of bargain blads knocking around in a while and latest and greatest crew move to the HY6

'Phase will change it for a year '- I bet the hy6 comes out in 366 days

While I have no emotional bond to my blad and am p*ss*d off with the non upgrade path I - I hate to say it but it absolutely trounced my old AFD in evey way (apart from cost)

Another thing I hate to say is a blad impresses my clients - sad but true

In terms of value my Mam+Proback combo was the most costly thing I ever bought because I sold them at a loss after only six months
« Last Edit: October 27, 2006, 10:58:23 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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mcfoto
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2006, 01:52:15 PM »
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mr. montalbetticampbell,

aren't you sponsored in some way by mamiya? don't you receive either free equipment or discounts on the gear? if you're going to provide advice here, should you not disclose something like this, in order to put some context into your recommendations? full disclosure is always a good thing; it shows more of the full picture.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quote

Hi
No I am not sponsored by Mamiya. At the moment here in Australia there is no agency for Mamiya. ( The agency no longer has Nikon which affected there business ). I did do some ZD promotions  for them this year but that no longer exists. When I switched from my Hasselblad 500 CM kit I looked at both the Contax & Mamiya and decided on the Mamiya in 1999. I have purchased every lens and body that I own. I did buy three of my lenses on ebay also.
   For fellow Australian photographers I know of a few companies interested in the Mamiya agency. Since the Hasselblad annoucement at Photokina, Leaf, Sinar & Phase agents down here are interested in Mamiya. They are also interested in Rolie.
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2006, 02:58:43 PM »
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My take is that what to use is based on how you use it, how it feels in your hand and the results you get. Try it first.

Years ago as a working photographer the Rolleiflex became an extension of my hands. Later in 1972, now as an amateur, I decided that the Hasslblad 500C would give me so much more flexiblity. And it did. It was a great camera. But, for me it never fit me, focusing was not as easy and most results, not all, were dissappointing.

After several years of 35mm photography I took the plunge back into medium format with a Mamiya 645 Pro and now use the 645 AFD. I have again enjoyed the feel of a camera that has become an extension of my hands.

So, it works for me. Your mileage may vary.
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Jack Varney
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2006, 03:02:52 PM »
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I just want to say that I am not sponser by anyone, I paid for all my equipements.

I has been a Hass user on film, I did get a demo P25 on a Mamiya AFD, which I up grade to a P45 and AFD II. I now used the AFD for manual lenses and the AFD II for the AF lenses. I like to focus my lenses and do not used the AF. I like to used the 35mm lenses for landscape. When you used a P45 for landscape, you can see all kind of sharp details with the 35 mm lenses, I am really surprise with the quality of the Mamiya lenses, they are sharp and you can get a great deal on them, on ebay. When you could get a manual 55-110 zoom for around $300, that is a great deal, a AF 55-110 goes for around $600 on ebay. The lenses are so cheap on ebay, I have a full set of manual lenses and AF lenses. I did get a 150mm AF lenses for under $300. I used to buy lenses at B&H, until I found ebay.

Just for ZZZONE, send me a message and I will send you a full frame and a 1:1 view of the combination of AFD with 35mm lenses and P45.
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paul_jones
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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2006, 03:34:30 PM »
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One nice thing about the Mamiya stuff is it's reasonably priced

Used 150mm 3.5 AF for $500:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...uyUsed&Q=198146

55-110 zoom for $1100:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...esc&fi=all&pn=2
(p.s. I believe your jig is up Mr. T.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82525\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i have an h1 now, but have used the afd mamiya quite few times (and a couple of times with the p25).
the adavntages with the mamiya;
-high (non flash syncing) shutter speed.
-focal plane shutter can take most of the old non af lenses, 1.9 80, fisheye, 300 2.8, shift. theres heaps of them.
-cheap system if buy second hand.
- when you can get the adaptor plates, you will be able to mount a afd mamiya mount back onto an RZ67, so you you get two systems you can choose.

the disadvantes of the mamiya;

-low flash sync
-no waist level finder
-slower focus
-the ergonomics arnt as good as good, imho
-screen is smaller to look through and way darker

as for price, i think the camera is a small part of it, and the back is what will really cost you. so its best to get the best camera system that works for you type of photograpy.

i really wanted the lens options that you can put on a contax (like mamiya), but decided to keep my canon when i wanted those kinds of options, and go with the h1 because it really is a completly different system to canon. i felt i had more options with these two systems.

paul
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yaya
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2006, 06:56:40 AM »
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A few more practical points, after working and testing with all platforms for several years with various DBs:

Mamiya:
- Size and weight of lenses (AF motor is in the body) - for anyone who travels,this may become a great advantage
- Runs on 6 AA batteries: they last long, even with AF and can be found anywhere and everywhere
- When replacing these batteries, one can still hold the camera by the grip, whereas on the H, the grip has to be removed.
- plenty of accessories: electronic cable release (although one can use a cheap mechanical one), rail extention with bellows, L-finder etc.
- When removing the back the rear curtain opens up - less prone to damage


H:
- Faster capture rate with DBs (quicker communication protocol and shorter release spring)
- 120mm macro has AF
- built in base plate that fits straigh onto some tripod heads

Most lenses are very comparable in terms of resolution and sharpness, with the HC being more contraty - hence looking sharper to some.

Mamiya's 120mm macro is the sharpest macro lens and has a wider workable f-stop range than any other lens including Schneider's Digitars.

AF on the H is marginally faster although the AF on the Mamiya is a bit more accurate in hitting the centre.


I hope this helps

Yair
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 06:57:22 AM by yaya » Logged
nicolaasdb
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2006, 03:35:09 PM »
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I have shot with the H2 and didn't like it!!
I liked the way it held in my hand, but it is to plastic... it constantly gave me error readings...too many electronics in the camera....it is bad enough we (photographers) have become techicians instead of artists....and using an H1/2 makes it worse!

I went for the AFDII and love it...nice and simple...the AFDII focus is much faster than the AFD and the lenses are much lighter....I don't really liked that the H1/2 the battery is the handle...

And what I liked the least with the H2 is that during a shoot the hasselblad lens gave up!! multiple lens errors!! lens had the by exchanged!

And it is not really Hasselblad any longer!!! You are paying for the name...it is a fuji camera with fuji glass!! Kind of like a Bentley build by VW or a Rolls Royce build by BMW etc....you pay for the name, not so much for the quality anylonger!!

I also think that Hasselblad are a bit arrogant...bringing an inferior digital back on the market and now on top of it all...the H3 with is a closed system!!

Just my 3 cents (inflation!)
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hcubell
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2006, 04:05:29 PM »
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I also think that Hasselblad are a bit arrogant...bringing an inferior digital back on the market and now on top of it all...the H3 with is a closed system!!

Just my 3 cents (inflation!)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Could you provide some detail about which Hasselblad back you worked with and for how long, and exactly how it was inferior to the other backs t hat you have worked with?
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rljones
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2006, 05:31:59 PM »
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I've owned both H2 and AFDii systems.

 I sold the H2 equipment primarily due to weight and bulk. I noticed no difference with respect to lens/image quality between the two. The focus speed was faster with H2 than AFDii, but not significantly. Also, the leaf shutter thing is a non-issue for me with respect to flash (for either studio flash or landscape, where I use no flash). Unless you do a lot of daytime fill flash, the leaf shutters make the H2 lenses heavier and larger (they sap not quite 1 f-stop of light, so the lenses are proportionally larger to make up the difference). I posted the weights on another thread in this forum.

As mentioned, the price is also way lower with Mamiya. I'm using a Leaf 65 on the AFDii and have no problems. The only difference I see with glass on the Leaf 65 is that the Schneider Digitars are a bit sharper and have more of a 3-D quality than the Mamiya glass, but it is subtle (especially since a new Digitar is about 10x more expensive than a used Mamiya 645AF lens). Bottom line, the Mamiya glass is excellent.

(BTW, I buy all my own stuff, so allegiance to no one.)

-Robert
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