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Author Topic: e75 fullres. shot of Munich with 28HR lense  (Read 7203 times)
rainer_v
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« on: October 28, 2006, 07:51:43 AM »
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back home....


shot with the eMotion75 with 28HR Sinaron lense from 30mtr. high crane.
no centerfiler, f8, 1/4 sec. exposure, iso50.
converted with emotionDNG from Brumbär to DNG and develloped in lightroom.

i like the lightroom converter for the seperate color possibilities and for the 4 sliders for gradations. lets see how will be the pixmantec code, after they have integrated it,- the rawshooter from pixmantec was very good....

4108x6212 pixel ( little bit cropped ) / jpeg quality 11

http://www.tangential.de/e75-testshots/
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 07:54:00 AM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2006, 08:21:45 AM »
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Thanks for posting. I noticed what looks like a few scratches. Is the sensor scratched?

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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2006, 12:11:50 PM »
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tks to post your photo!!

Very good panoramic photo of munich...I like the colos!!!  but the 28HR does not it seem to give very good results, above all in the edges.

You have tried to shoot a test card to verify it?
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Francesc Costa
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2006, 02:25:14 PM »
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Thanks for posting. I noticed what looks like a few scratches. Is the sensor scratched?


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82658\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It may just be an artifact from the watermark
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ericstaud
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2006, 03:14:57 PM »
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Hi Rainer,

Very nice image.  I have noticed using the Leaf Gain adjuster with my wide lenses that I feel some of the shots are over-corrected for falloff if I set the correction to 100%.  I prefer to have the value of the sky at the sides of the image equal to the value at the center, or slightly darker.  This may be  due to the way the light passes through the Plexi diffuser disk which causes an over-correction.  Have you looked into this?  Can the eMotion DNG converter apply less falloff correction, or is it an all or none solution?

Also, I notice that your exposure time is saved in the metadata of your file.  My Aptus 75 does not know the setting of my Copal shutter.  Are you using copal shutters?  Or do you have a special shutter that communicates this information to the eMotion back?

Thanks for sharing your images with us.

-Eric
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 03:15:55 PM by ericstaud » Logged
rainer_v
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2006, 04:26:22 PM »
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Hi Rainer,

Very nice image.  I have noticed using the Leaf Gain adjuster with my wide lenses that I feel some of the shots are over-corrected for falloff if I set the correction to 100%.  I prefer to have the value of the sky at the sides of the image equal to the value at the center, or slightly darker.  This may be  due to the way the light passes through the Plexi diffuser disk which causes an over-correction.  Have you looked into this?  Can the eMotion DNG converter apply less falloff correction, or is it an all or none solution?

Also, I notice that your exposure time is saved in the metadata of your file.  My Aptus 75 does not know the setting of my Copal shutter.  Are you using copal shutters?  Or do you have a special shutter that communicates this information to the eMotion back?

Thanks for sharing your images with us.

-Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

very good eyes folks,- foto-z you really are great in finding this things.....
- but this time the fine lines yre just  the rest from one of the retouched cranes which have been in the image... see here the original as crop ( shame over me...).

no the fall off is corrected for 100%. i will look after if this effect of overcorrection will happen regurarly with the superwides, till now i was not conscient of it. if so i will discuss it with stephan.... in general i add vignetting in pp, if i like it..( what i usually dont do ).
 the plexi-shot itself does not show any luminance raise up in the corners after converting it with itself.

the exposre time is read out from the sensor, not from the copal. sure the aptus also records how long its synchronized by the copal, i suppose it might be a software question to read out that.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2006, 04:36:51 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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rainer_v
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2006, 04:38:57 PM »
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tks to post your photo!!

Very good panoramic photo of munich...I like the colos!!!  but the 28HR does not it seem to give very good results, above all in the edges.

You have tried to shoot a test card to verify it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82690\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hm.. i hardly doubt that there is a better superwide lense out than the 28HR, i already havent seen it.
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rainer viertlböck
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2006, 05:16:36 PM »
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Thanks for posting this

I bet many no really looked at images this close in film

Interesting that you find drop of at the edges pleasant  - so do I !

Have you tried movements on this lens

I would be particularly interested in a bit of rise and shifting both sides - to get even wider

I am sure this is possible with your gotchenmungler camera

SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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rainer_v
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2006, 05:29:03 PM »
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Thanks for posting this

I bet many no really looked at images this close in film

Interesting that you find drop of at the edges pleasant  - so do I !

Have you tried movements on this lens

I would be particularly interested in a bit of rise and shifting both sides - to get even wider

I am sure this is possible with your gotchenmungler camera

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82733\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

you can shift and rise the lense 12/10mm without vignetting or sharpness decrease. does not sound so much but in practice for a lense that wide its very usefull for architecture or landscape. thats the main reason why i prefere it over the 24xl,- beside that i think it has less vignetting and if you need so you can use it open, it still is sharp,- although best f is 11. what surprise me is that the defraction over f16 appears very soft,- much softer than the non-HR lenses,- this is significant with all the HR lenses i own ( 28-35+60 ), they are sharp from f4,5 - f22 or higher.
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rainer viertlböck
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2006, 06:01:45 PM »
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very good eyes folks,- foto-z you really are great in finding this things.....
- but this time the fine lines yre just  the rest from one of the retouched cranes which have been in the image... see here the original as crop ( shame over me...).

Great, I am relieved to hear it!
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khwanaon
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2006, 10:27:13 PM »
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back home....
shot with the eMotion75 with 28HR Sinaron lense from 30mtr. high crane.
no centerfiler, f8, 1/4 sec. exposure, iso50.
converted with emotionDNG from Brumbär to DNG and develloped in lightroom.

i like the lightroom converter for the seperate color possibilities and for the 4 sliders for gradations. lets see how will be the pixmantec code, after they have integrated it,- the rawshooter from pixmantec was very good....

4108x6212 pixel ( little bit cropped ) / jpeg quality 11

http://www.tangential.de/e75-testshots/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Rainer for your experience sharing.

superb quality and wonderful feature this eMotion DNG Converter. I doubt anything more could be improved in your image. And the 28HR gives really fantastic results.

Aon
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pixpop
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2006, 11:14:38 PM »
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Rainer, It's PERFECTION! Thank you for sharing.

pp
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ddolde
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2006, 11:47:50 PM »
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Incredible detail...thanks for the view.
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free1000
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2006, 05:57:37 AM »
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I think it should be emphasized that the 28HR is an extremely expensive optic...

I have been quoted £3800 for one mounted for the Cambo Wide. Quite a shocking figure. However there is no doubt that the edge quality is far superior to the 24XL from Schneider and I guess, if MDDB's go higher than 33-49Mpix it will be essential to have an optic with this resolution if a superwide angle is required.
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alba63
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2006, 07:52:56 AM »
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Hello, I wonder why noone has asked for the very visible traces of moiree in the picture. Around the "haus" writing on the left side of the pic, then at the "e" of "rainEr" (watersign) in the tiles of the roof and in various other places. Looks the same as in my 5d pictures. Then the trees in the lower left of the pic have a certain painterly" look, in my opinion.
In general on a pixel level (100% view) I think the file quality is not very clean. It was ISO 50, so I am a bit surprised, also because this is already downsized if I understood correctly...

Sure, it is a very detailed picture, but I dont find the quality particulary convincing. It is 24MP, not 39 after all....

Sorry for playing the devils advocate...

regards, Bernhard
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khwanaon
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2006, 08:10:21 AM »
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Hello, I wonder why noone has asked for the very visible traces of moiree in the picture. Around the "haus" writing on the left side of the pic, then at the "e" of "rainEr" (watersign) in the tiles of the roof and in various other places. Looks the same as in my 5d pictures. Then the trees in the lower left of the pic have a certain painterly" look, in my opinion.
In general on a pixel level (100% view) I think the file quality is not very clean. It was ISO 50, so I am a bit surprised, also because this is already downsized if I understood correctly...

Sure, it is a very detailed picture, but I dont find the quality particulary convincing. It is 24MP, not 39 after all....

Sorry for playing the devils advocate...

regards, Bernhard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It seems that you mix up Moiré with artifacts: there is no visible trace of any Moiré in this file and one can notice a little fall-off due to the lens, althought this lens is pretty perfect. The artifacts in the roof ("e" of Rainer) are probably due to the jpeg compression. However, at this level of details I put you on the test to do any better with any film and/or lens/MFDB combination.

The trees with "painterly look": have you noticed the exposure time = 1/4 sec?

BTW: it is not a 24MPx, but 33MPx sensor: I doubt higher (39 MPx or more) would change anything!

Aon
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alba63
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2006, 08:30:26 AM »
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It seems that you mix up Moiré with artifacts: there is no visible trace of any Moiré in this file and one can notice a little fall-off due to the lens, althought this lens is pretty perfect. The artifacts in the roof ("e" of Rainer) are probably due to the jpeg compression.

(...)

BTW: it is not a 24MPx, but 33MPx sensor: I doubt higher (39 MPx or more) would change anything!

Well I dont know whether I mix up something, but in the facade of the house straight on the right of the writing  "haus" and "Versicherung" the artefacts are really nasty, it is after all a 10MP JPEG, Rainer says that JPEG quality is "11", honestly I have NEVER seen so strong artefacts in JPEGs above quality setting of 3 or 4.
Would be interesting what Rainer has to say about it.

Yes I know the back is 33MP, but this very JPEG is 24 MP, but Rainer says it was cropped not downsized.

I am certainly not trying to proof the sinar back is "bad",  but everyone has had praise so far, whereas the shown file is not of good quality in my eyes at all.

A while a go someone - I think it was "photo-z" showed a large city panorama of London (??) made with the Mamiya ZD which was much cleaner and better colors also..

regards, Bernie
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khwanaon
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2006, 08:51:15 AM »
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Well I dont know whether I mix up something, but in the facade of the house straight on the right of the writing  "haus" and "Versicherung" the artefacts are really nasty, it is after all a 10MP JPEG, Rainer says that JPEG quality is "11", honestly I have NEVER seen so strong artefacts in JPEGs above quality setting of 3 or 4.
Would be interesting what Rainer has to say about it.

Yes I know the back is 33MP, but this very JPEG is 24 MP, but Rainer says it was cropped not downsized.

I am certainly not trying to proof the sinar back is "bad",  but everyone has had praise so far, whereas the shown file is not of good quality in my eyes at all.

A while a go someone - I think it was "photo-z" showed a large city panorama of London (??) made with the Mamiya ZD which was much cleaner and better colors also..

regards, Bernie
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82890\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernie,

I did not see the London panorama you are refering to, so I can't comment on it. But for me the shown file in question is pretty perfect, in regard of the subject and light conditions. And for sure, what you are signaling in the room as Moiré aren't, but simply some reconstruction artifacts. But again, look at the distance and reproduction scale of this detail: no film, being it 4x5" or even 8x10" would be able to render these kind of details. Now, to compare different MFDB, one can only speak and compare with side by side comparison, with the same subject/light, camera and lens. Otherwise it is only speculations, IMO.

It is therefore also difficult to speak about colors, if you say the ZD was having much better colors and cleaner: what do you compare? the one file is taken under a certain light/subject combination, the other file is a different one.

Anyway, also not trying to argue for arguing, but to share my experience with files.

best regards,
Aon
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rainer_v
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2006, 10:28:06 AM »
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Hello, I wonder why noone has asked for the very visible traces of moiree in the picture. Around the "haus" writing on the left side of the pic, then at the "e" of "rainEr" (watersign) in the tiles of the roof and in various other places. Looks the same as in my 5d pictures. Then the trees in the lower left of the pic have a certain painterly" look, in my opinion.
In general on a pixel level (100% view) I think the file quality is not very clean. It was ISO 50, so I am a bit surprised, also because this is already downsized if I understood correctly...

Sure, it is a very detailed picture, but I dont find the quality particulary convincing. It is 24MP, not 39 after all....

Sorry for playing the devils advocate...

regards, Bernhard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

. one point behind the others...
1 i dont find moiree at the points you are referring too. in other little details i might find some, but not there. further: moiree is - in opposition to artefactes - a physical law, if the lense exceeds the resolution limit of the sensor. you just can avoid it in using a unsharper lense or stopping down the lense for using its defraction unsharpness ( which is not so easy with the HR lenses for the little diffraction they show ),  or putting a strong AA filter in front of the sensor.
the 5d has - in opposite to the 1ds2 - a weak AA filter, therefore this camera can show moiree, the 1ds2 (nearly) never show moirees , for me this is not an advantage of the 1ds2, its for my purposes a weak point of its design . fashion or clothes shooters might have here another opinion because it can be a pain to remove moirees from clothes,- but in landscape or also in architecture it rarely is very difficult to remove. so i prefere the sharper image, which shows moirees in some places, than the softer one which has not. ofcourse this mf systems are far away from any point and shoot solution,- the canons are not far away from that, and in someway they are even perfect p+s cameras.

2. i think what you describe as "painterly look" is wind, cause some parts of the trees in the left corner are moving.

3. it is 24mp for cropping some sky and some foreground. the sensor has 33mp and the image is not downsampled, its cropped- one big advantage of the new sensors.

4. i cannot find the things around the "E" .

5. there are some , little purple fringings around some roofs. this could have been removed by me in photoshop desaturating the magenta colors in this zones, but i have let the image nearly "rough" edited. except some ( mild ) sharpening, retouching of the cranes and raising up the shadows.

6. the 5D is a very good camera- i like it more than the 1ds2,- cause it is sharper for its weaker AA design. but it has at least two big points where the e75 and similar chips are way in front:
one is that the resolution of the e75 is 2,5 times more.
second is that the dynamic range is higher with the mf sensor. you are wrong if you think the 5d image would look in this image even similar in this shadows. the foreground is very dark. it was seconds before the sun disappeared, the towers still had some sunlight and the foreground is completely in shade. the 5d would have here much more noise in the shadows,- and some more in the sky also. ( i allways have problems to have really smooth skies with the  35mm sensors - they all show noise in monochrome regions,- maybe except the alsides hated kodak slr cameras in its iso6 mode ).

7. cannt speak about the mamiya, but i have also the e22 which use the 22mp dalsa sensor also,- and ofcourse this back is very good,- so why not the mamiya?,- in this light conditions at least the e22 will deliver very similar quality, just 22 than 33mp. the advantages of the 33 sensor are others ( higher iso- much better reproduction of all tungsten sources ).
and as aon said, ypou cannt compare this london shot wiith this image,- the motif is too different,- but i agree that the mamiya can make pretty good pictures if the photographer is knowing what he does.

8. some other poster commented the price of the 28HR. yes, it is expensive. but it is also very good,- at least for architecture. its the onliest real wide lense which i can still shift . i sue it without center filter even wide open,- although it has its falloff also but not too much not to be compensated by white reference shots without showing too much noise than in the corners.
in interior i shoot 50% with it.... when i got it i also had doubts about the price/wide-angle factor compared with the 24xl..... but now i think its a "must" for my system and the shift way is very practical for me.

9. about the quality: print it out if you want ,- i think it looks great printed at every size you will need ever.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 12:20:14 PM by rehnniar » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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www.tangential.de
Dustbak
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2006, 12:17:36 PM »
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I have been carefully looking at the image the performance of this lens is very good.

However on the left there are some fixed structures (fences and GSM antennas) that are somewhat blurry, these don't move with the wind.

What is causing this? The rest of the picture is really sharp and nice.

I am still wondering whether to get a setup like this. Sofar I have been able to get similarly sharp shots with lesser systems. The advantage of this setup would be to get it in 1 shot.
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