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Author Topic: Any news on the Hy6 project?  (Read 18099 times)
yaya
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« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2007, 08:22:18 AM »
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The RZ I shot at 1/8 handholding it and got sharp pictures out of it. I mean... a 7x7 mirror should slap more than a 645 mirror... right???

The possible rotation of the back alone is going to be a gift to many Hy6 shooters in the future. Also the grip seems to be more ergonomical.

Boris is there a reason why you don't use the RZ to shoot digitally?

[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
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hcubell
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« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2007, 01:45:44 PM »
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The latest online version of the British Journal of Photography has some new information about the Hy6, including what appears to be "official" confirmation that the only MFDBs that will be part of the program are the Leaf and Sinar backs.
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jeff_singer
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2007, 06:03:59 PM »
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The article states "It has been confirmed that no other digital back manufacturer will be involved in the Hy6/AFi project."

How involved was PhaseOne with the Hasselblad H project?  Or the Contax 645 project... or the Hasselblad V project?  But, they have backs for all those cameras.

Jeff



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The latest online version of the British Journal of Photography has some new information about the Hy6, including what appears to be "official" confirmation that the only MFDBs that will be part of the program are the Leaf and Sinar backs.
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william
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« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2007, 07:29:36 PM »
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That article also says that there will be a Rollei branded Hy6.  That would only seem to make sense as a platform for backs from manufacturers other than Leaf and Sinar, who'll have their own "flavors" of Hy6 cameras.  Or, I guess the Rollei branded Hy6 could also make sense from a film-based standpoint...
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hcubell
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« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2007, 10:04:42 PM »
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That article also says that there will be a Rollei branded Hy6.  That would only seem to make sense as a platform for backs from manufacturers other than Leaf and Sinar, who'll have their own "flavors" of Hy6 cameras.  Or, I guess the Rollei branded Hy6 could also make sense from a film-based standpoint...
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I think you should take these statements at face value. The message is clear to me: Phase is OUT of the Hy6 project. I am sure that if Phase were in on the project, the statements on the record from all involved would be totally different. Phase iteself would be quick to set the record straight if it were not as it appears to be.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2007, 02:40:56 AM »
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Hi
I think you have to look at it as a business model. Jenoptik owns Sinar and have funded this camera. Sinar & Leaf used to work together in early 2000. This seems a way of gaining market share for both Leaf & Sinar over Phase ( especially Sinar ).
I am caught in the middle, I perfer Leaf & Mamiya. Looks like Phase is going to have to do something serious with Mamiya. As Mamiya is the only open platform left in the MFD market. I will look at the new Hy6 but I will have to consider the price? From my contacts the Hy6 is only a Sinar & Leaf platform and I first heard about this camera in May 2006.( from my contacts)
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2007, 10:17:11 AM »
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Hi
I think you have to look at it as a business model. Jenoptik owns Sinar and have funded this camera. Sinar & Leaf used to work together in early 2000. This seems a way of gaining market share for both Leaf & Sinar over Phase ( especially Sinar ).
I am caught in the middle, I perfer Leaf & Mamiya. Looks like Phase is going to have to do something serious with Mamiya. As Mamiya is the only open platform left in the MFD market. I will look at the new Hy6 but I will have to consider the price? From my contacts the Hy6 is only a Sinar & Leaf platform and I first heard about this camera in May 2006.( from my contacts)
Thanks Denis
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This is true - although my expectation is that at some point, Phase will work with the Hy6 camera - Rollei branded or whoever. But I could be wrong.

However, you've hit upon a key element. It's already been clarified that it's difficult to endure as a non-digital camera only company and thrive. While Jenoptik would sell more cameras if Phase was a licensed partner, that would not necessarily provide higher profits, than if Phase One market share was impacted by the lack of camera platforms and Sinar digital backs improved their market share as a result. The increase in digital back market share profits would likely trump the profits from the sale of more cameras. It's a tough market out there, and the stakes are high.

I think right now, contractually, Phase is out. But that may be for a limited period of time. Clearly, if they had hard news, they would be trumpeting it. Somewhere, there are some lawyers who are not talking, and that frees us up for speculation - our favorite pastime!

Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2007, 10:23:00 AM »
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And Sinar is taking over distribution of Rollei professional products. This is even more telling, and at the same time, provides even more murkiness. Will Sinar be selling open platform Rolleiflex Hy6's to Phase One? It's hard to see how this is all going to play out. We need to get at those lawyers.  

Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
James Russell
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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2007, 10:41:54 AM »
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However, you've hit upon a key element. It's already been clarified that it's difficult to endure as a non-digital camera only company and thrive. While Jenoptik would sell more cameras if Phase was a licensed partner, that would not necessarily provide higher profits,
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Steve,

You've alluded to this before and it doesn't make sense to me.  Why is it that camera companies could thrive selling film only cameras, knowing that had no part in the profits of film and processing, though they can't survive unless the camera maker gets a profit from the db sale?

I think it's just a matter of volume and db's are/were so expensive and until now so difficult to use withhout a comuter, they lost all most of their market to Canon.

To me for any medim format camera to survive they must sell a lot of cameras and lenses and I still hold to the thought if Phase or Leaf or anyone had offered a $7,000 digitial back with a good lcd 4 years ago, many people would have never bought Canon's in the first place and Contax, maybe even Bronica would still be around.

Still, I find it hard to believe that Rollei, or F+H or HY6 (I really don't know who owns what) doesn't sell this camera to the #1 and #3 digital back markets the camera won't be around for long.

Given all of this, everything about the HY6 is just conjecture and until it hits the street and is available on shelves and is actually tested by the users, none of this matters.

The only thing that really matters with digital capture for commerce is what works today.

JR
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pprdigital
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2007, 10:59:46 AM »
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Steve,

You've alluded to this before and it doesn't make sense to me.  Why is it that camera companies could thrive selling film only cameras, knowing that had no part in the profits of film and processing, though they can't survive unless the camera maker gets a profit from the db sale?

I think it's just a matter of volume and db's are/were so expensive and until now so difficult to use withhout a comuter, they lost all most of their market to Canon.

To me for any medim format camera to survive they must sell a lot of cameras and lenses and I still hold to the thought if Phase or Leaf or anyone had offered a $7,000 digitial back with a good lcd 4 years ago, many people would have never bought Canon's in the first place and Contax, maybe even Bronica would still be around.

Still, I find it hard to believe that Rollei, or F+H or HY6 (I really don't know who owns what) doesn't sell this camera to the #1 and #3 digital back markets the camera won't be around for long.

Given all of this, everything about the HY6 is just conjecture and until it hits the street and is available on shelves and is actually tested by the users, none of this matters.

The only thing that really matters with digital capture for commerce is what works today.

JR
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James:

My conjecture is that, as you hinted at, it's really a volume deal. Bronica and Contax were doing fine, until photographers started spending their money on Canon SLR's instead. Then, their numbers went way down, and sales numbers are critical to the relationship of manufacturing costs and selling prices. So the formula changed and it no longer worked.

I believe that still holds true today and that trend will continue as Canon and Nikon continue to evolve their products - they get much closer to medium format quality than they did in the film days, which puts even more pressure on the MFDB's to up the ante, adding to their development costs and putting pressure on their pofitability. Digital is the only way these companies can survive long term, because it does have a chance (not a guarantee) of producing adequate profitability.

You're dead on the money with regard to nothing matters until we see the product. And while it's exciting to me to see new product in medium format, I have some concerns about these new products even before they hit the street, not least among them the price tag, which I believe everyone is overlooking. Rollei cameras and lenses traditionally are among the highest costing gear in medium format. That puts even more pressure on the product to really deliver - I mean it needs to hit the ground running and clicking on all cylinders or else folks are gonna swallow real hard about forking out $6K - $8K for a kit and $3K - $6K per lens.

Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2007, 11:19:59 AM »
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I mean it needs to hit the ground running and clicking on all cylinders or else folks are gonna swallow real hard about forking out $6K - $8K for a kit and $3K - $6K per lens.

Steve Hendrix
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You are right about that! I would be willing to fork out that kind of money to my dreamkit. A piece of equipment that would make me get rid of all other systems that I also own and use.

The killer camera system (like the killer app.).

Sofar none of the currently available stuff has all the elements that I am looking for and the Hy6 system is looking to become no exception.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 11:20:48 AM by Dustbak » Logged
James Russell
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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2007, 11:29:20 AM »
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James:That puts even more pressure on the product to really deliver - I mean it needs to hit the ground running and clicking on all cylinders or else folks are gonna swallow real hard about forking out $6K - $8K for a kit and $3K - $6K per lens.

Steve Hendrix
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Steve,

This is the key.  Whatever is sold must be perfect and complete out of the gate.

Hardware, software, useability under pressure.

Everything that is written on the PDF must be delivered.

I don't hold out a lot of hope for a camera system with $4,000 lenses, unless the system is complete, the camera is robust and the digital part that goes on the back is as close to perfect as possible.

For me to take a meager (by digital standards) $11,000 investment (with 10 lenses, 3 bodies, two prisms, etc.) of a Contax system and trade it in on a camera and three lenses will be $18,000 is not a viable alternative if the digital back is not the very best one available and if the camera platform is not open to all of the digital backs.

To me these type of numbers push people further towards Canon, not away from Canon.

A $30,000 digital back with a $18,000 camera system is a lot to swallow in one move, if the alternative dslr only cost $7,000 and lenses average $1,200.

In comparison my P-30 with the Contax is around 1/2 of that $48,000 investment.

JR
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tom_l
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« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2007, 11:53:09 AM »
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I guess that Phase just missed to jump on the train. They probably want(ed) to wait how the camera sells and then decide.
Ayway, i'm quite sure id they want to make a back to fits, they can. But if the camera is only sold together with a new back, who would buy a Phase back?

I once was interested in the Sinar m camera and asked around if Phase would do a mount for it. Sinar answered if Phase wants tomake a back for it, they can. Phase said, if this camera sells well(i suppose it doesn't;-))) ), they will..


tom
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william
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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2007, 12:36:54 PM »
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Yeah. my Contax + P30 is looking better and better, since it remains unclear whether Phase will get in on the Hy6 project and, even if it does, how "tight" the final product will be in light of F&H and Jenoptik not looking realy open to Phase involvement from the ground up...

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A $30,000 digital back with a $18,000 camera system is a lot to swallow in one move, if the alternative dslr only cost $7,000 and lenses average $1,200.

In comparison my P-30 with the Contax is around 1/2 of that $48,000 investment.

JR
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« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2007, 12:55:34 PM »
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I use Mamiya because it is an affordable system at the moment. You can put any of the DB on this camera so at least it is open. Phase has been in talks with Mamiya. This is a good oportunity for Phase to get well priced kits on the market with Mamiya. I have a great range of Mamiya glass that are less expensive than Canon lenses on ebay. After all Mamiya will have a 28mm in a few months and if Phase can provide corrective software for this lens that is a bonus for both parties involved. I look forward to the new Hy6 camera but I would just rent it on a job if I needed it.
Thanks Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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James Russell
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« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2007, 01:37:10 PM »
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Yeah. my Contax + P30 is looking better and better, since it remains unclear whether Phase will get in on the Hy6 project and, even if it does, how "tight" the final product will be in light of F&H and Jenoptik not looking realy open to Phase involvement from the ground up...
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Just going from the statements by the manufacturer's reps and that bjp article;

I think it's funny that the three back manufacturer's with the most "challenged" software are the three that are trying to lock out Phase, or I guess in their terms, "secure a competitive edge in the market".

Personally I think they would all be better off to invest in software that equaled C-1, better lcd's, faster workflows, rather than spend time trying to lock anyone out of a camera platform.

All three, Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad have software suites "to come", though C-1 is is stable, funcitonal and professional today, hence the reason Phase leads the market.

I think this says more for the state of professional photography equipment than almost any development I've seen in since the start of digital capture.

Victor Hasselblad would never have made a camera that only accepted one brand of film.

These type of proprietary systems are not designed by artists their are cooked up in conference rooms.

Maybe I'm stubborn, but I want to be able to chose my camera and my film (digital) in any combination that suits my style.

I don't want to have to be locked into any one camera, any one lense or any one digital back.

I want more options than I had with film, not less.

JR
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 01:45:24 PM by James Russell » Logged
David WM
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« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2007, 09:32:50 PM »
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A $30,000 digital back with a $18,000 camera system is a lot to swallow in one move,
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You are right, upgrading both camera and back at the same time hurts. In the last 12 months I have acquired an H1 outfit and an e22. If I already had the H1, the back would probably have been a 33 or 39 Mp model.  But here are a few thoughts..
But I'm not sure the size of the investment is out of step with our profession.   If you compare it to the company car  a resonable sales rep might have, or the shop fitout of costs of a retail shop, what is the value of the best tools of trade? I think the distinction of having gear noticably different to what the local school is using for high school students is a business investment that needs to be considered if there is a quality difference for the sort of work you do and also so the client notices that your gear is different to his brother-in-law's ( clients seem to do mental maths adding up what they think you've invested  to justify paying what they consider to be our overpriced services).

With the volume of sales what they are, I think we may be lucky to have anyone investing seriously in our tools of trade. It doesn't seem to be a growth market (but could be). If at the end of the day we have the choice of buying the premium product or a less expensive option that is a good thing. A bad thing will be if they pack up shop and we are stuck with cameras designed mainly for fast handheld work. If we pay $xx less for a DB that might have been the cost of an extra software engineer which the company could have had, etc.

David
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