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Author Topic: Aptus 75 centerfold issue still not solved  (Read 19219 times)
Dustbak
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2006, 09:22:36 AM »
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Listen to the response from clients when you show a red lcd preview, or even a pixelated lcd preview and hear the photographer say "don't worry, it will look good on the computer".  Watch the computer previews come up 40pts. green, see the room gasp and then watch the digital tech start running through the series of wb options trying to fix it.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is really to the core of the matter. My Leaf is about 40 points off towards green, so no red display but an ugly green display!

This is horrible when a client is there on the shoot, they never forget the green and will think they see it on every image you deliver to them.
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Streetshooter
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2006, 10:32:57 AM »
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I do not see any information about where I can see your work!?   

willow.no
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That's because I'm not pushing one back or another with a hidden agenda. How do we know that people who post here saying this or that back is wonderful are not employed by the manufacturers themselves or agents for them?  What I think posters should do is show their work if they recommend an item of equipment.

I'm not in a position to offer any advice on a MFDB as I was just about to sign a cheque for one. I was anyway until I read all the horror stories. Now it's going to wait until I'm satisfied the manufacturers are being straight with their customers. It appears disatisfied users are coming out of the woodwork daily !

No wonder people are getting  stressed over it all.
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James Russell
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2006, 10:58:13 AM »
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How do we know that people who post here saying this or that back is wonderful are not employed by the manufacturers themselves or agents for them?


I seriously doubt if that happens.  What seems like an Agenda is usually just familiarity.

I say the A-22 is good, but I use it all the time and am comfortable with it.

It's not an agenda, it's just experience, much the same as when Michael reports on the Phase.  He's use to it, knows his way around the software and what to look out for.

Still, any problem with these cameras can be a big problem on the day of the shoot.

In my world you have to get about  20 things right to secure and win a project and only .5 of one thing off to not get the gig.  Consequently it takes about 2000 things right to make a successful project and one one issue to brand it a negative.

I also have 40pts green on my Aptus 65 tethered in V-8 and LC10 and when the files go into pscs.

They pretty much correct out ok,  but  what a fright.  Such a fright I just put it away and go with the A-22 and like someone said, at that point all the clients see is green.

Saying this is not an agneda for or against Leaf, it's just my experience.

Recently I had the opportunity to briefly test a P-30, H3 with my A-22 in the same HMI light source.  Once again this is a very brief test and should not be read as an endorsement or a review.

The A-22 worked as it always does, no issues, proper iso, with just a slight 10pt green cast.  I shot the A-22 tethered.

The H3 I shot untethered and the oled display was bright red and so were the thumbnails in flexcolor.

The P-30 I also shot quickly untethered and the lcd was even and pretty, much like what I am familiar with the Leaf, and pretty much the same resolution as the Leaf though much smaller.

In the software the P-30 file came out of the camera the prettiest, with the A-22 a close second, the Hasselblad a close third.  All three files could be made to look almost identical, though the easiest to work was the P-30 file, except for sharpening.  Out of the can the P-30 file is quite beautiful with excellent skin tones and color rendition.

C-1 IMO sharpens funky and the P-30 has a slight AA filter look, somewhere between the Canon and the Aptus 22 in sharpness.  I find C-1 sharpening on all levels way too abrupt and the files are best sharpened later in PS.

Processing the A-22 files in pscs is a no brainer and produces slightly more grain and film like look, than the other two cameras, but this is a function of acr.

As far as software goes C-1 is really robust and stable and once you learn it quite easy.  For batch processing it's really the gold standard, though it takes a long time to build previews and is very power hungry.  It's not a software that tethers that well with an older G4 powerbook and to tether correctly you really need a G5 tower minimum.

Leaf V-8 really tetheres the fastest and easiest, to the point it runs on almost any computer you chose and runs fast.  The one downside is Leaf is not adding additional features such as higher iso over 200 and seems to be moving away from V-8 to LC-10.

LC-10 to me is very stubborn and disconnected.  The one thing LC10 does well is it produces excellent 1000 pixel wide jpegs automatically.  I usually tether in V-8 and then put the files in lc 10 and let it make the jpegs, which happens fast.

Flexicolor to me is kind of strange.  It's much like V-8 somewhat easy to use, and unlike V-8 has a temperature slider.  The downside is the thumbnails are bright red and the main preview window is not high rez, though the image does come up in the proper color.  There is a small detail window that shows sharpness and high rez, but no way to produce a high rez file without processing.

The Leaf and the Phase one file work directly in lightroom (which I think is going to be the bomb), but the H3 file is not recognized by lightroom without dng conversion.

Still, all of these cameras work, though you really have to test and learn for yourself.

JR
http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com
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Eric Zepeda
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2006, 11:08:39 AM »
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It appears disatisfied users are coming out of the woodwork daily !

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Some of us are very satisfied. My P25 has worked out very well for me, and my clients as well. While I do use the 1Ds on occasion, I would never go back to a total 35mm DSLR workflow. Even with the learning curve, software and hardware issues, the benefits are just too great to ignore.

I don't think it matters what platform you're on, this technology has it's quirks that take time to work out. Staying one step back from the cutting edge, and using proven, tested products is not a bad approach. It may not have the glam factor of the latest and greatest, but the best digital back in my book is the one that works day in and day out.
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Streetshooter
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2006, 12:21:53 PM »
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I seriously doubt if that happens.  What seems like an Agenda is usually just familiarity.



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James,

I never doubted your integrity for one minute. For a long time you've so generously given your advice and free information in your posts here and on the old RG forum. Both you and Eric along with many others nail your colours to the mast by giving your site adresses. I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them?  I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.  

But then where have I heard this all before. Mr T. pointed this out a few weeks back !
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Dustbak
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2006, 12:47:23 PM »
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I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them?  I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.   

But then where have I heard this all before. Mr T. pointed this out a few weeks back !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What a balony! I have never even looked at the sites of any posters here, from their remarks and information they are giving I can tell which one is making sense and which one is not. If you cannot, you are probably lacking in knowledge but in that case any advise is dangerous.

For me even peoples real names are aliases since I don't know anyone personally (with a few exceptions).

Come on and take some responsibility yourself. You can read anything you want online whatever you do with this is totally up to yourself and your responsibility.

When hell freezes over I will put my real name on any forum (including the ones where I am Mod).

Whoever wants to know who I am? Send me a PB, get to know me and you will find out.

Maybe you were not referring to me since I will never recommend anything to anyone since everybody is working differently. I am prepared to share experiences though.
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SeanBK
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2006, 12:48:28 PM »
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I stand corrected.
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ericstaud
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2006, 12:58:21 PM »
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James, How in the world did you manage to shoot H3 with your Aptus-22 and the thumbnails in Flexcolor. My understanding from all those enormous postings earlier that H3 is closed system!!! Yet you shot it with A-22!!! and opened it Flexcolor which is Hasselblad's software!!!
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He is refering to shooting with the H3, the Aptus 22 (on a different camera), and the P30.

Three seperate cameras, not two.  Just a gramatical error.
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richardhagen
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2006, 12:58:22 PM »
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James,

I never doubted your integrity for one minute. For a long time you've so generously given your advice and free information in your posts here and on the old RG forum. Both you and Eric along with many others nail your colours to the mast by giving your site adresses. I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them?  I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.   

snip
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I'm a new visitor/poster on this forum, I do use my real name, and no, I don't have a web site.  I've been reading posts by some of these frequent posters - you know - some of the posters who "nail their colors to the mast" - and I think with some of these people, it's one huge ego trip - they're experts on everything, they have 2 of each digital back and know it all, and they make comparisons and comments that sometimes boggle the mind because their arguments are based on faulty logic. If you think that they don't have their own agenda which they try to advance then there's a bridge in London I'd like to sell you. Readers beware and read between the lines.

Streetshooter, maybe I missed something, aren't you one of the people posting under an alias?

Richard Hagen
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Dustbak
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2006, 01:04:31 PM »
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Richard, I know of this guy that sold a tower in Paris twice as scrap metal but have not met anyone that has been selling a certain bridge in London  
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James Russell
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2006, 01:12:15 PM »
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He is refering to shooting with the H3, the Aptus 22 (on a different camera), and the P30.

Three seperate cameras, not two.  Just a gramatical error.
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For the sake of clarity,  I shot the P=30 and A-22 with a Contax and the H3 with and H3.

I didn't really want to mention cameras because my reference was to the backs, thier use, look and workflow.

JR
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James Russell
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2006, 01:22:24 PM »
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James,

I never doubted your integrity for one minute. For a long time you've so generously given your advice and free information in your posts here and on the old RG forum. Both you and Eric along with many others nail your colours to the mast by giving your site adresses. I was really referring to posters who recommend gear and hide behind an alias. How can people trust them?  I wished I was in a position to dispense wisdom like you so readily do.   

But then where have I heard this all before. Mr T. pointed this out a few weeks back !
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I didn't think you or anyone was implying anything, though I think most views that come across as bias ussually are just experience.

I've seen Phase guys that love Phase, Leaf guys love leaf, etc., but 99% of that is just that they have had good experience with the products and that is thier main point of reference.

In reality it doesn't matter as long as your getting what you want out of a camera, or back or both.

JR
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eronald
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2006, 03:38:41 PM »
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James,

With much less experience, I'd like to confirm:

From the files I examined, I too noted the A30 needs slight sharpening, although much less than the Canon 1Ds2. The P30 does have  HUGE detail in there recoverable by unsharp mask, again like the 1Ds2 but the files can also take a huge amount of color adjustment which the 1Ds2 files cannot. The Leaf files I shot myself as well as those I obtained from various sources  looked sharper out of the box, maybe they don't even need any sharpening.

I couldn't see anything seriously wrong with any of the Leaf or Phase model-shoot files I examined so far. And you all know how eager I am to jump on minor defects  


Edmund
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2006, 04:26:49 PM »
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In my experience, the P30 files are often too sharp for fashion/beauty , so I turn of all sharpening in C1.
My experience with the A22 was that it was not sharp enough.

Just IMO.

Willow
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Willow Photography
James Russell
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2006, 05:01:01 PM »
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In my experience, the P30 files are often too sharp for fashion/beauty , so I turn of all sharpening in C1.
My experience with the A22 was that it was not sharp enough.

Just IMO.

Willow
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That is the exact opposite experience I found though it must be used with qualifiers.

The P-30 files on skin and pores is very sharp, but on certain weaves and material, eyelashes, etc. is less sharp and somewhat softer than the A-22., but it doesn't appear to be a global type of sharpening, it's almost subject specific and lighter fabrics and jewlrey almost have a glow, where the A-22 sharpening and the appearance of detail is global.  If I move the sliders on the A-22 it all gets either sharper or smoother, but pretty much starts out very sharp depending on lens.

JR

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Vihang
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2006, 09:39:42 AM »
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Yes Im aware of this issue, it only happens on Aptus 75, again only with wide angle lenses, again only in certain lighting conditions. this does not happen every time. if you take this picture on two different days this may not happend on the second day.

at present leaf has made a small stand alone software named "file converter-wdeangle" if you will run this small software, this problem will be gone from the raw file.

in coming new firmware of aptus 75 this issue will be resolved.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2006, 07:18:55 PM »
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It has been four months and 7,000 frames that I am shooting with A75. It is the first Leaf back that I use after seven years with various Phase backs ( last one P25 ). My experience is phenomenal. I asolutly love it and experienced no problems at all with CF. I looked very hard for its presence but seen nothing but clean, perfect files. High Iso is great, color is dead on spot. I would never look back or even remotly consider swithching to P1. I just signed for the S upgrade and I am looking forward for a long term relation with Leaf.  My A75 is used on H1 and Mamiya Rz via ECO adapter.

www.AndreNapier.com
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pixjohn
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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2006, 11:55:20 PM »
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Thats funny, I have the problem on every file with every lens with my 24xl, 35xl and 49xl. I am waiting for my 4th Aptus 75 back thats on its way. The stand alone program is a patch not a solution. I have tried to speak with leaf about it to deaths ear. I already know 2 other photographers who have dumped their Aptus 75 for other manufactures  backs, because of the work flow. I have tried to bring up what I feel would be a good solution, but nobody wants to hear it. I am weeks away from also returning my Aptus 75.

Leaf needs to create a one shot fix like phase and Sinar that can be uploaded to the back. I don't have all day to use the gain adjuster in V8. Create a program like the stand alone gain adjuster that is in side V10. Make it so I have to only shoot  1 shot. To do this type of thing in post is ridiculous. I spent hours lighting a shot, to have the gain adjuster change the look and feel of a shot?


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Yes Im aware of this issue, it only happens on Aptus 75, again only with wide angle lenses, again only in certain lighting conditions. this does not happen every time. if you take this picture on two different days this may not happend on the second day.

at present leaf has made a small stand alone software named "file converter-wdeangle" if you will run this small software, this problem will be gone from the raw file.

in coming new firmware of aptus 75 this issue will be resolved.
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KAP
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« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2006, 12:16:19 PM »
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I thought I finally solved the centerfold issue with my 3rd Aptus 75 back. I tested the back on my cambo Wide DS and my first test looked clean.

I then shot a project on the new back thinking no centerfold issues, how wrong I was. I did not see the centerline on my 17in Macbook Pro on location, but. When I returned to process the files on my G5 with Sony artisan monitor I see the centerline. The difference from my test to the shoot was time exposure. I was shooting with a Schneider 47xl 4-6 sec exposures.

This is just a never ending issue.


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As I don't own a MF back I suppose I should not comment, but what the hell. How does a sensor gather information when on long exposure? I can only see the line in the sky, the house I can't see a line. So is it something to do with the darkening sky as the light fades with some time difference to gathering the information between right and left hand sides?

Kevin.
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ericstaud
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« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2006, 12:58:00 PM »
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As I don't own a MF back I suppose I should not comment, but what the hell. How does a sensor gather information when on long exposure? I can only see the line in the sky, the house I can't see a line. So is it something to do with the darkening sky as the light fades with some time difference to gathering the information between right and left hand sides?

Kevin.
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No.  I had an Aptus 75 for about 4 months.  This issue will happen in the middle of the day with a 1/500th exposure as well.  It is easily masked by textured subject matter.  Shooting the sky is one of the easiest ways to make it show up.  With interiors photography (or in a forest full of trees) you would likely not see it.

There are explanations on this forum of the technical cause.  I think maybe by Edmund or Yaya.  It is nearly exclusive to non-retrofocal wide angle lenses, or with lots of shifting.  The idea is to have a lens very close to the sensor so that light is striking it staight on in the middle and a steep angles out at the edges.  So a person shooting a view camera with a 35mm lens will have the problem, while the person shooting the retrofocus 35mm lens on a Hassy will not have the problem.

Each company has solutions to this or other problems that occur between MFDB's and Non-retrofocal lenses (or with swings and tilts).  Leaf has the "Custom Gain Adjuster", Sinar has "Brumbaers DNG converter", Phase One has "LCC" and "Pattern Noise Reduction".

From my experience, Phase has the best tethered solution.  Sinar has the best portable solution, and Leaf is in the middle.  There is a new popularity in shooting architecture with these cameras.  The MFDB companies are playing catch-up with the software solutions.  I think many of us feel like early adopters.

With Leaf, the uniformity issues were not known until after a bunch of us paid for the Aptus 75's.  That is why there are several people so upset about this.  

It is not so cut and dry though.  While Phase has a very fast solutions to their color casts in the LCC tool,  I can only process my images in C1 Pro.  As far as Lightroom, ACR, and RAW developer are concerned, my P45 images with color casts are defective.

Leaf and Sinar actually correct the RAW files rather than just the output.  So the files have many more processing options.  The new ACR has adopted many of the features people like about Lightroom, but I cant use it.  In February with C1 pro V4 I will reportedly be able to output DNG files which have the color casts removed.  I will be able to use ACR and others once again.

Because users bought Leaf backs believing that there would be NO uniformity issues (ala Phase One)  there are a few people who have returned the backs and chosen something else.  BUT, they are just buying into some other companies uniformity issues (this includes me).  For me, the software solution with Phase was superior because I could view corrected files on the computer screen immediately, and it was less time comsuming to apply the settings (but I am stuck in C1 Pro).  I think that Rainer does more untethered shooting, and so the Sinar has a better solution for him.  In Six months from now each company will have spent a lot more time working on this issue.  So who has the best solution right now, may not have the best solution in the future.


"Lots of ins lots of outs, its a complicated case."
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