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Author Topic: Rollei Hy6: final design update  (Read 57594 times)
Mort54
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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2007, 07:27:03 PM »
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There's a lot to admire about this forum. But the one aspect of it that is just plain childish is all of the brand bashing. It's a sign of insecurity, I think. People defending their choice, and bashing the choices of others, but secretly wondering did they make the right choice. Maybe the cost of these systems has addled everybodies brains :-)

None of the current crop of MF offerings are perfect. Every one of them has it's share of warts. After looking long and hard at all of the current offerings, I ended up going with a P45+ and a Mamiya AFD II system. Is it perfect? NO. Does it have all of the features I want? No, but it has enough of the features I want. Do I like it so far? Yes, very much. But there were aspects of every single system that gave me pause, and other things about each system that I dearly wished would be available in other systems.

I came within a whisker of getting the H3D-39. I would have been very happy with it, and I have no doubts it would have served me well. And I certainly wish I had some aspects of it's control interface on my AFD II. I would have also been perfectly happy with a Hy6. Unfortunately, their schedule didn't match up with my schedule. But I'm sure I would have been well served by it had I waited a little while longer for it. If Contax had still been in production, I might have gone that way. So it goes.

Weigh the pros and cons and select the system that works for you. They'll all do a fine job. And they'll all give you fits at one time or another. But bashing everybody elses choice is just plain childish.

Just my $0.02 worth.
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thsinar
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2007, 09:20:57 PM »
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Paul,

I know and have seen it, that's why I have informed about it.

I am sorry about that, but it is somehow not avoidable, when so many images have been posted everywhere since last Photokina.

Thierry

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thierry...go to www.sinarbron.com and check out the Hy6 there....someone did not get the memo.....

typical sinar marketing.....unfortunately.....i WANT that camera, but the first thing i thought was too bad they did not change that ugly colorscheme.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117149\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2007, 09:31:51 PM »
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so it is:

I wonder why the same questions/remarks/critics have not been asked/made when the H system was launched, years back.

It was Sinar (and other manufacturers) who made THEIR adaptations for THEIR backs, without Hasselblad being involved (in the contrary).

The same applies here and there are 2 DIFFERENT things to be looked at:

- the camera project itself: it has been clearly communicated who is the project owner, who is the manufacturer and who is selling this camera. Phase One is out of this process, as well as Hasselblad (obviously).

- the adaptation to this camera: this is another issue. But also here we have clearly commmunicated our position, since the begining and without changing this communication.

Thierry

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I think Thierry has made it clear (more than once) that Phase is free to go ahead and make a Hy6 version of the Phase One backs. No-one is stopping them. Same goes for Hasselblad. In that respect the Hy6 is totally open - no-one is locked out. Do you think Hasselblad supplied Sinar with ready-to-go adapters to fit the eMotion backs onto the H series cameras?

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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2007, 10:15:37 PM »
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Thanks, for yor always fair and "non-bashing" comments.

Like you, I wish to see and read sometimes a bit more respectful posts, respectful of all persons, choices and brands.

We are all here to learn, to give or to get information, and also a little bit for "fun": not to get bashings.
When I am posting something under my and Sinar's name, it is with the best of my knowledge and the respect of others views. Mistakes happen and we all make mistakes: it should not be used against each other.

Thierry

Quote
There's a lot to admire about this forum. But the one aspect of it that is just plain childish is all of the brand bashing.

Weigh the pros and cons and select the system that works for you. They'll all do a fine job. And they'll all give you fits at one time or another. But bashing everybody elses choice is just plain childish.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117193\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 10:25:41 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2007, 11:17:31 AM »
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We all know medium format is a small market.

Given that, medium format seems to have develeoped into a closed end system, in other words one brand of back for one specific brand of camera.

Hasselblad started it with the H-3 and regardless of claims after Photo East most people know that all future H developement will go to the all in one H camera and H back.

I don't fault Leaf and Sinar for doing the same with the HY6, but as far as more options those options come with a qualifier.  

Where do you buy the Rolliflex version of this camera outside of Russia or Japan and does Sinar sell the camera, lenses only without their digital back, because I have seen no pricing to suggest this?

If you like those brands great, your set, but things change fast in the digital world and what is the favored digital back today can be quickly limiting or problematic tomorrow.

I can list some compelling reasons to own more than one brand of digtial back and unless the camera platform accepts all brands easily, I do believe that is limiting.  

After all in the film days would you buy a AGFA only RZ or a Kodak only V system?

In regards to the cameras functionality, the HY6 has been advertised as a square format, waist level camera from the beginning and though it now shows a prism finder, since it doesn't have a right angle grip like a Canon or Contax, it seems clear that the designed way to change orientation is by rotating the back.

That isn't brand bashing, that's just the information that has been given to us from the start by the manufacturers and from Sinar's own press release they make mention of future square format sensors, so it's just logical to assume that's the intended direction for this camera.

I'm glad this camera is coming to market but would be much happier if Iknew that it was available as a stand alone camera that was sold at a competitive price without a digital back.  Maybe it will be but so far I have yet to see any information regarding this.

Obviously your a fan of Rollei and Sinar and predesposed to be positive towards that brand.

That's your choice and the current business model of digital backs will probably suit you just fine, though I find all of the new medium format offerings to come with an asterick at the bottom of the page which reads, to buy our camera you must buy our back.

That just seems to be the way the industry is headed and once you buy into one brand of digital backs, it's difficult and costly to swtich.  The manufacturer's want you to stay with their brand for your career.  Why else does every  db maker have a schedule to trade in your back (or in hasselblad's case your older H-1) and receive huge discounts for the next model.

I guess that is the reason you see very few modern digital backs for sale on E-bay and I have to assume that this system is in place to protect the db market.

What does Leaf and Hasselblad do with all the used Aptus 17's and H-1's?  They can't really be worth that much to them in parts so I assume it's to keep the resale market closed.

Personally, I'm not a fan of any camera, not to the point of positively pushing that brand.

I use a Contax and obviously have no agenda to spread the Contax word as they are out of business, though I am sure that if they were in business today deals would be in place for their cameras to be proprietary to one or two single brands of backs.

I boght the Contax(s) way before I bought a digital back and at the time could compare and put any of the 4 db makers backs on the camera (actually still can).

Try that with the new H3 or the HY6, buy the camera first and then compare all backs.

For the record I use Contax not for the camera but because of the focal plane design I can and do use a variety of lenses from Pentax, Contax, Hasselblad and Harteblei.

All produce a different look and once again since Contax is out of business there is no agenda to lock any digital back out of their system and other than the Mamiya 645 the Hasselblad and this new Rollei doesn't seem to be headed in the direction of 3rd party lens options.

The bottom line is nobody wants to selll just cameras, that's not where the money is.


JR





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you looking at a lot of cash for a camera that doesn't reallly have a clear agenda.

what do you mean by no clear agenda?

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Is the HY6 a truly universal camera platform or is it just a marketing tool for Leaf and Sinar to sell more backs?

I think Thierry has made it clear (more than once) that Phase is free to go ahead and make a Hy6 version of the Phase One backs. No-one is stopping them. Same goes for Hasselblad. In that respect the Hy6 is totally open - no-one is locked out. Do you think Hasselblad supplied Sinar with ready-to-go adapters to fit the eMotion backs onto the H series cameras?

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Does it have full functionality today with the 645 and smaller sensors or will it only really be funcitonal once a square sensor is announced?

What functionality could possibly depend on the sensor size?

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The fact the back only rotates by removing it tells me that it's not really there until we see new sensors.

You could always turn the whole camera, as with the Hass H, Contax or Mamiya. Or you have the choice of rotating the back - a choice the others don't give you. Why complain about having more choice?
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2007, 11:40:55 AM »
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The only brand that constantly gets burned down is hasselblad's H system. Mostly based on non realistic information and by people who don't even own one.
The h3 is indeed a closed system, and for good reasons, as is the mamiya ZD. Nevertheless, you can put every back on the H2 or H1 without limitations.
Why do so many people keep on spreading so much nonsens about a completely closed system and constant problems with hassie Huh??
I own a hassie H2, contax 645, fuji 680 and mamiya RZ on wich I use my 39CF and 384C back without problems or failures..... day in , day out and they all serve different purposes and they are all wonderfull systems.....
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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2007, 12:32:39 PM »
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Nevertheless, you can put every back on the H2 or H1 without limitations.
Why do so many people keep on spreading so much nonsens about a completely closed system and constant problems with hassie Huh??[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117292\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Because as I said earlier, those cameras are no longer current or available. Limitations are when you can't use your P1 back anymore because your H2 died and you can only rent or buy an H3.
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2007, 12:41:46 PM »
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Why do peolple keep on spreading this false information, is it because they want to create a hype or worse.... or is it because they simply refuse to accept the facts.
The hasselblad H2 is here with us and will not go away ( at least not without being replaced by a successor wich accepts all different back's).
The hasselblad H2 is still out there in production and will stay!!! Only the H2D is replaced by the H3D wich is quite a wonderfull camera.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 12:50:32 PM by ixpressraf » Logged
Dustbak
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« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2007, 01:01:05 PM »
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It is not just one brand that gets bashed. Every DB maker has had flak at one time or another.

What I feel really uncomfortable about is the idea you cannot trust the party you have trusted with your business. DB makers appear to be trying to keep customers locked in by limiting their options.

In every aspect I feel things are implemented or omitted to make it hard for me to switch to another brand.

This is not in my best interest as a photographer, no party has my best interest highest on its agenda.

This is the thing that really worries me about all DB makers. What will be the next thing to block me from more or other options.

Or am I just a bit paranoid and are these things just coincidences?

I much rather stick with vendors because I feel they have my business high on their agenda. It is coming from the other way but just might work as well.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 01:05:58 PM by Dustbak » Logged
pss
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« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2007, 01:09:37 PM »
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Because as I said earlier, those cameras are no longer current or available. Limitations are when you can't use your P1 back anymore because your H2 died and you can only rent or buy an H3.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

you don't see that his forum's only reason to exist is to bash hasselblad? how dare anyone reporting problems they have with their cameras or lenses.....or that someone is voicing their astonishment that a system that they bought into does not support their back from one day to the next.....

there are a lot of people out there who own H1 or 2s with phase or leaf backs and they are very happy but just like with any system there are problems and i don't see why posting them in a forum like this is bashing.....this is why this forum exists in the first place....people ususally don't spend their days gushing about how great their system is....they come here because something does NOT work.....

go look at the printer forum and look at the threads.....oh no, there is some serious HP bashing going on in there!.....or maybe it is just people having problems, vicing them any trying to work through them and hopefully at some point the manufacturer fixing what is wrong in the first place.....

open and closed systems: the H3D is a completely closed system.....hasselblad says that it has to be in order to build in lens correction in the software....sounds great....hope it works....power to them and everybody who buys into this hoping that they will be able to provide the best solution for the next 2, 4, 6, 10 years...best camera, lenses, backs, software, and all in all best combination of all.......my personal opinion is that they won't be able to do it.....this is based on th experience that it hard enough to build the best camera and lenses, so coming up with the best backs and software on top of it.....i would not (and don't) buy into it.....this has nothing to do with hasselblad....i would not buy into anything like that coming from rollei, mamiya or phase.....

i understand that everybody is trying to sell the back with the camera these days....to make sure that people will buy the next version of the camera and more lenses.....thank god i don't have to....i can pick and choose.....i guess i wish i would really have liked the hasselblad CF solution the best when i did my tests....i would be able to use 6008,H, RZ, 680,...everything....but to me the phase was a better solution...so much better that i gave up shooting with the rollei to shoot phase....i have no regrets at all....i can use my 645 and my RZ and just got a new toy, the lensbaby 3g for my 645afd....

regardless of open or closed, i would never drop everything just to get in line to buy a camera that nobody has shot with yet.....don't get me wrong....the Hy6 looks amazing, if i had unlimited funds i would buy one right away....the emotion back is great....but for me to use it as a tool, it has to prove itself first....problems, technical, mechanical, logistical.....i am sure most of it will be fine, the 6008 is a great camera, so by the time someone makes a phase adapter, i will have to take the plunge....i hope i get at least a year....
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2007, 01:54:13 PM »
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Bravo, Mort!  I couldn't agree with you more.

Congratulations on your purchase!  I'm glad it is working for you.  (I've been following in your footsteps, and hope to make my purchase this month.)  As you mentioned, my research is turning up both pluses and minuses with every solution--it's comes down to a matter of which ones each individual prefers to live with.

Best regards,
Brad
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 05:29:25 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

pprdigital
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« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2007, 02:10:48 PM »
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open and closed systems: the H3D is a completely closed system.....hasselblad says that it has to be in order to build in lens correction in the software....sounds great....hope it works....power to them and everybody who buys into this hoping that they will be able to provide the best solution for the next 2, 4, 6, 10 years...best camera, lenses, backs, software, and all in all best combination of all.......my personal opinion is that they won't be able to do it.....this is based on th experience that it hard enough to build the best camera and lenses, so coming up with the best backs and software on top of it.....i would not (and don't) buy into it.....this has nothing to do with hasselblad....i would not buy into anything like that coming from rollei, mamiya or phase.....

i understand that everybody is trying to sell the back with the camera these days....to make sure that people will buy the next version of the camera and more lenses.....thank god i don't have to....i can pick and choose.....i guess i wish i would really have liked the hasselblad CF solution the best when i did my tests....i would be able to use 6008,H, RZ, 680,...everything....but to me the phase was a better solution...so much better that i gave up shooting with the rollei to shoot phase....i have no regrets at all....i can use my 645 and my RZ and just got a new toy, the lensbaby 3g for my 645afd....

regardless of open or closed, i would never drop everything just to get in line to buy a camera that nobody has shot with yet.....don't get me wrong....the Hy6 looks amazing, if i had unlimited funds i would buy one right away....the emotion back is great....but for me to use it as a tool, it has to prove itself first....problems, technical, mechanical, logistical.....i am sure most of it will be fine, the 6008 is a great camera, so by the time someone makes a phase adapter, i will have to take the plunge....i hope i get at least a year....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=117322\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There's nothing stopping anyone from selling an H3D or H4D down the road and moving into a different system. Traditionally, digital back manufacturers have always made it easier to stay in their family by providing generous upgrade options to loyal users......and thereby making it more expensive to switch out of their brand. This is nothing new with regards to Hasselblad HXD owners, that option will continue to be open to them just as it has been for Sinar, Leaf or Phase owners.

The notion of "closed systems" doesn't hold with me. Is a Leaf Aptus a "closed system". No, it's a digital back that you can put on different cameras, although there are limitations (closed?). For instance, you can't put a Leaf or Phase One digital back on a Contax and a 503CW. Is that "closed"?

What if you don't wish to use your P25 any longer and want to switch? It costs less to stay with Phase. Is that "closed" pressure? I want to use a D2X, but I own a 1DS. Am I being "closed out"?

The old film models no longer apply. Our industry (for better or worse) is moving towards MF Digital Cameras. Hasselblad was there first, Sinar and Leaf are next, Phase very likely trying to be next. Photographers today do indeed have fewer, and more limited options with regard to medium format cameras in terms of taking (an extremely low cost) piece of film and putting it on whatever camera they want. The (digital) film is extremely high cost, and it's just a different world for these companies, and as a result, for us. On the other hand, these MF Digital Cameras - or "closed systems" as some prefer, have shown that they can provide better performance and enhanced features and quality than stand-alone digital backs. Two years from now, after Phase One buys Contax  , the Phontax P55D Camera will be a better product than the P55 Digital Back. It simply won't be quite as versatile.

But you'll still have the option of switching.

Steve Hendrix
Professional PHotographic Resources
www.ppratlanta.com
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Steve Hendrix
ixpressraf
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« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2007, 02:21:42 PM »
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Thats well spoken Steve! It's simply an economical reality.
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thsinar
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« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2007, 08:59:52 PM »
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Hi James,

some precisions about the Sinar Hy6 system:

- The system currently allows 2 brands of backs, and that there are more in the future is not Sinar's decision (see my previous explanation).

- Yes, Sinar does sell the camera alone, without back: the prices have been communicated to our distributors already. So YES, it is available from Sinar as a standalone camera, and NO, you must not buy our back.

- I have myself listed here on LLF all the accessories which will be available for this camera system, including the prism finder. It has been "advertised" and showed mostly with a waist level, since this is part of the delivery scope of this camera, when purchased alone, together with battery and its charger.

- I have also said, a few times and here on LLF, that we are currently checking the possibility to have revolving adapters, and that if it is mechanically possible, then we will manufacture and provide them.

Best regards,
Thierry

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Given that, medium format seems to have develeoped into a closed end system, in other words one brand of back for one specific brand of camera.

Where do you buy the Rolliflex version of this camera outside of Russia or Japan and does Sinar sell the camera, lenses only without their digital back, because I have seen no pricing to suggest this?

In regards to the cameras functionality, the HY6 has been advertised as a square format, waist level camera from the beginning and though it now shows a prism finder, since it doesn't have a right angle grip like a Canon or Contax, it seems clear that the designed way to change orientation is by rotating the back.

That isn't brand bashing, that's just the information that has been given to us from the start by the manufacturers and from Sinar's own press release they make mention of future square format sensors, so it's just logical to assume that's the intended direction for this camera.

I'm glad this camera is coming to market but would be much happier if Iknew that it was available as a stand alone camera that was sold at a competitive price without a digital back. Maybe it will be but so far I have yet to see any information regarding this.

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« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 09:00:34 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2007, 09:33:15 PM »
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There are two different problems involved with buying a high-end digital back: the technical and the business. The technical can be worked out on a camera-by-camera basis. One size doesn't fit all, and after some diligent research, most people can make a decision that they are satisfied with.

The business problem is much murkier. You could make an argument that the Hy6 system, however good it is, is simply too late. Both Canon and Nikon are expected to announce their new high-end models fairly soon, and Nikon is expected to announce a revised line of high-end pro lenses. There are not many photographic problems that can't be solved adequately by these systems, especially after they get past ~20mps, and as their noise control and DR get beter and better. That means that the MF backs are going to become even more of a niche, and under more pressure. Buying an Hy6 -- one body, plus the several necessary lenses and back, will cost what? $45,000-50,000? That's a substantial risk for most people, if there's any possibility at all that the system will fail as a business project. And how many shoots are you going to have that couldn't have been done with a Canon or Nikon for 1/5 the capital cost?

Obviously, there are some people who will need the MF quality -- but enough to support three or four different manufacturers? I don't know. But I wouldn't want to be the guy left holding the bag.

IMHO, James Russell is right: the stampede to the Hy6 is going to be a small stampede, made even smaller by the expansion of the Canon-Nikon duopoly.

Counter-argument: the expensive and not-necessarily most-practical M8 seems to be doing quite well for Leica. Although the money involved is much, much smaller.

JC
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william
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2007, 12:21:47 PM »
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Thierry,

Could you please tell us the actual price in US dollars of the standalone camera (not with the digital back)?  Communicating it to your distributors is one thing, but communicating it to us is another.

Thanks!

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- Yes, Sinar does sell the camera alone, without back: the prices have been communicated to our distributors already. So YES, it is available from Sinar as a standalone camera, and NO, you must not buy our back.

Best regards,
Thierry
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thsinar
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2007, 07:41:53 PM »
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Dear William,

I am actually not in position to give this information for the US or other countries: prices vary from one country to another and depending on the local situation.

Then, each distributor is free to set its own price: Sinar does not "force" but only recommend a market price, for the same reasons as above.

All I can give you is the recommended market price as applied in Switzerland = Euro 3'152.- for the body. This prices when ordered separately and without any digital back.

But I would contact our distributor SBI or Matt Lapointe from SBI here on this forum (member "mattlap2"): they will be able and willing to give you any price information.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

Could you please tell us the actual price in US dollars of the standalone camera (not with the digital back)? Communicating it to your distributors is one thing, but communicating it to us is another.

Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=118867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 07:42:19 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2007, 08:51:07 PM »
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Dear William,

I am actually not in position to give this information for the US or other countries: prices vary from one country to another and depending on the local situation.

Then, each distributor is free to set its own price: Sinar does not "force" but only recommend a market price, for the same reasons as above.

All I can give you is the recommended market price as applied in Switzerland = Euro 3'152.- for the body. This prices when ordered separately and without any digital back.

But I would contact our distributor SBI or Matt Lapointe from SBI here on this forum (member "mattlap2"): they will be able and willing to give you any price information.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=118919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

William,

Pricing is being worked on and should be out very shortly.  

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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william
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« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2007, 08:32:52 AM »
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Thanks Matt and Thierry.  I look forward to official US pricing info.

Quote
William,

Pricing is being worked on and should be out very shortly. 

Matt LaPointe
Sinar Bron Imaging
National Sales Support Specialist
(219) 670-9905
mlapointe@sinarbron.com
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« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2007, 09:24:06 PM »
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It is interesting; looks like a Contax with an H series handle. Promise of good glass. Don't know that I would find any reason to switch from Contax, but certainly not if it doesnt have a Phase back.

Any word on that. (and with my 65 year old eyes, I apologize I havent tried to read all the posts!)

regards
Victor
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