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Author Topic: HP9180 profiling  (Read 6483 times)
Ronny Nilsen
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« on: November 16, 2006, 06:12:25 AM »
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I'm finally getting the HP9180 i orderd a month ago, and reading Michael review I notice the following paragraph on making profiles:

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At the lower left corner of the plug-in screen is a dialog titled HP Color Center. Within that is Add Custom Paper, which produces the dialog seen above. This allows you to indicate the type of HP paper that your new paper is similar to, and then point to its profile (one that you've made or otherwise acquired).

My only complaint with this otherwise very well executed capability is that it would be much simpler if HP simply provided choices, such as Glossy or Matte, Paper Thickness, and the like. Knowing which paper type to choose from their provided list is an exercise in frustration and likely wrong choices. For example, which would you choose for a medium weight matte paper?

So my question is: does anybody have som suggestions on what papertypes to use for different papers? Currently I'm going to make profiles for Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Moab  Entrada Fine Art and some different fine art matte papers.
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alan9940
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 03:43:50 PM »
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I'm finally getting the HP9180 i orderd a month ago, and reading Michael review I notice the following paragraph on making profiles:
So my question is: does anybody have som suggestions on what papertypes to use for different papers? Currently I'm going to make profiles for Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Moab  Entrada Fine Art and some different fine art matte papers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello Ronny,

I have the HP9180 too...just got it earlier this week. Based on what I've read over on Uwe's outbackphoto.com website, he used "Photo" for soft-gloss/luster/etc style papers, and "Photo Rag" for matt papers. So, for Hahnemuhle FAP use "Photo" and for the Moab FAN use "Photo Rag."

One thing that I've yet to figure out when adding a custom paper, though, is inking limits. For example, along with my printer I ordered a box of HP Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art and a box of Museo Silver Rag. I downloaded a paper profile for the B9180 from Crane's website. Using "Add Custom Paper" I set the description to Museo Silver Rag, the type to Photo, and set the aforementioned profile in the third box. My new paper "Museo Silver Rag" showed up in both the plug-in and the driver. Great! However, all prints made--both B&W and color--were horribly dark and the color, though dark, was not great. I realize I'm dealing with a generic profile, but given the fact that the B9180 uses closed loop calibration I was expecting even this generic profile to be fairly close.

I e-mailed my saga to Crane and they responed that HP Soft-Gloss was used as the media type when the profile was created. This weekend I plan to do a couple of tests to see if media type or the profile is causing the issue I'm seeing. Maybe, I should have entered HP Soft-Gloss into the first box, Photo into the second, and the profile into the third? Dunno. If you get this sorted out, I'd love to hear the solution. Let me know if you would like to communicate on this subject off-list; maybe, between the two of us, we could nail this down.

Good luck,
AlanH
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Ronny Nilsen
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2006, 01:18:34 AM »
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Hello Alan,

My printer have arrived, and I'm picking it up this afternoon after work.  

But I wont have to much time playing with it this week.  

The outbackphoto reference was useful, I will try those suggestions whnen making
profiles.

I will be making my own profiles with a GretagMacbeth Eye-One Photo SG system,
so it should be possible (easy?) to solve the problems, but if I know the right paper/setting
combination up front I will save some paper and ink.  

Feel free to PM me and we'll solve this.
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neil snape
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2006, 08:02:06 AM »
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Hello Alan,

My printer have arrived, and I'm picking it up this afternoon after work.   

But I wont have to much time playing with it this week.   

The outbackphoto reference was useful, I will try those suggestions whnen making
profiles.

I will be making my own profiles with a GretagMacbeth Eye-One Photo SG system,
so it should be possible (easy?) to solve the problems, but if I know the right paper/setting
combination up front I will save some paper and ink.   

Feel free to PM me and we'll solve this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=86128\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's a cinch to profile. Just print with the settings that come closest to the media type you are using and no colormanagement in Photoshop , and application color in the driver.
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ericbullock
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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2006, 09:31:43 AM »
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It's a cinch to profile. Just print with the settings that come closest to the media type you are using and no colormanagement in Photoshop , and application color in the driver.
I wish it were that simple. The original problem was stated quite well. There is really no way to know what media setting is appropriate for your specific non-HP paper. None of the paper manufacturer sites I've visited have media setting recommendations for the B9180...if they have any information at all about this printer. Crane's lists ICC profiles, but then don't tell you how to use them (duh!).

I've been in the process of profiling a handful of non-HP papers, and while the profiles are OK, it has been a lot of trial and error determining the optimal media setting. For instance, I still have not found a media setting that will minimize the amount of dry banding that occurs with excessive ink loads on photographic papers (like Fine Art Pearl, Innova Fiba Glossy, Silver Rag, Epson Premium Luster/Glossy). I've attached a small JPEG that shows the problem areas of the 1728 patch chart I've been using.

If there were a better way to control ink limiting this could be minimized, if not eliminated. For those not familiar with this phenomenon, dry banding occurs when too much ink is applied. D-Max actually starts reversing with additional ink application, resulting in a hazy, almost matte appearance in that area of the print. In evaluating these charts I'm not overly impressed by the B9180's behavior when all the color management is shut off. There needs to be a way to throttle the ink limits back a bit.

My $.02
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2006, 02:13:52 PM »
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Here's a fairly simple method for figuring out the best media preset for off-brand papers:

Print a profiling color chart using the standard profile chart print methodology--all color management turned off and unaltered RGB values sent to the printer. Do so with several media settings and look for the one that has the best linearization--the most even color gradients and the least blocking of shadows and highlights. Pay close attention to the nearly-white and nearly-black patches, as well as the highly saturated colors. With a poor media choice, you'll observe things like numerous dark gray/black patches that are indistinguishable from each other, light gray patches that aren't very light, etc. Get the gradients as even as possible with the media settings, and the profile will have to do less color adjustment heavy lifting when you make your custom profile.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2006, 02:39:56 PM »
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Inkjet art indicates it for their profiles ...

http://www.inkjetart.com/cgi-bin/profiles.cgi

Head over to the DPreview.com printer forum and ask "Chris the tech guy" how inkjet art determined the best paper settings.  (I'm guessing they either did what Jonathan said or maybe they just tried em all.)
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madmanchan
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« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2006, 03:30:36 PM »
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Yeah, if you want to be thorough about this, try going here:

http://homepage.mac.com/billatkinson/FileSharing2.html

Download the "Profile Test Images" and use those as your guide. Also download Bill's Target FAQ for more detailed info.

Eric
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neil snape
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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2006, 11:47:36 AM »
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I just printed out a stack of charts on different settings for Ilford Smooth Glossy.

The best was Maximum detail -2 ink density.

Even at that it leaves a haze on the darks. When it's still wet , it is obvious that by brushing the velvety spots with a thumb , the inks are floating, and not going to adhere to the surface.
I dried some on the CRT monitor (see guys there is still an argument for CRT) the velvety areas do NOT disappear but inks are adhering to the media.

Sooooo, this is a chemistry issue that won't go away with simple ink reductions. Printing on max DPI slows down the printer so the inks pool less. Yet it is not a question of amount of ink, rather one of the ink formulation and media surface which in the case of Ilford there is a gelatinous surface that seems to repel the carrier causing both a residue and coalescence.


I have been reading posts in the past few days that Canon is doing similar things. It makes me think it's a question of ink loads vs carrier chemicals needed for thermal heads.

I'll copy this to some HP Eng. or scientists but I don't think there is an easy fix for medias that have gelatin for this inkset.
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Greg_E
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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2006, 01:12:19 PM »
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Neil,

You might want to consider that those Ilford papers were made for the Epson printers back when Epson was the "only" pigment printer company. So it is very likely just as you say, a chemical problem that may not go away with simply limiting the ink load. That said you should probably see the same thing in other colors too, specifically in the magenta. Do you have a RIP that works with this machine yet? That would make it easy to test and see if the other colors are also a problem, as well as changing the ink load.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 01:13:43 PM by Greg_E » Logged
scottglevy
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« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 10:35:01 AM »
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Neil,

You might want to check out Veroproof.  They have free open source RIPs for the HP9180 (as well as HP8850 and Epson 2880).

Link:
Veroproof Free Open Source Ripwww.veroproof.com
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