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Author Topic: freedom of choice?canons or nothing  (Read 15739 times)
yodelyo
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« on: November 16, 2006, 07:37:02 PM »
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hello
not really a question but more of a gripe: I have the canon 1Ds MkII and it is a good camera no doubt but I would rather use something else.....but i cant! I cant afford the MF backs and there is nothing inbetween, pricewise. in the old days new cameras came out all the time, but since the 1ds came out it has been that or $15-$35k mf backs that arent worth the $$$........and dont bring up the ZD because I have seen all those crappy images people have posted, they LOOK digital. I have a contax 645 and I am holding onto hope that a digital back will surface for under 10k but getting tired of waiting.........why doesnt someone come out with a new camera like the canon that is not a 35mm toy??? All those 35mm digi cameras (1Ds, 5d, nikon) are weak. Theimages they produce are pretty good but they arent big and sturdy like a real camera. I loved the RZ and I know others do also, cant someone make a great camera with a bright viewfinder that feels/focuses like a great camera ( RZ, contax, pentax 6x7, hassy 500 ).....I challenge someone to do it! Hah!
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 08:08:21 PM »
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f
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hello
not really a question but more of a gripe: I have the canon 1Ds MkII and it is a good camera no doubt but I would rather use something else.....but i cant! I cant afford the MF backs and there is nothing inbetween, pricewise. in the old days new cameras came out all the time, but since the 1ds came out it has been that or $15-$35k mf backs that arent worth the $$$........and dont bring up the ZD because I have seen all those crappy images people have posted, they LOOK digital. I have a contax 645 and I am holding onto hope that a digital back will surface for under 10k but getting tired of waiting.........why doesnt someone come out with a new camera like the canon that is not a 35mm toy??? All those 35mm digi cameras (1Ds, 5d, nikon) are weak. Theimages they produce are pretty good but they arent big and sturdy like a real camera. I loved the RZ and I know others do also, cant someone make a great camera with a bright viewfinder that feels/focuses like a great camera ( RZ, contax, pentax 6x7, hassy 500 ).....I challenge someone to do it! Hah!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You might want to start by explaining us what exactly you dislike with the Canon? Is it just that it doesn't feel like a "real" camera?

Most of the digital backs are not using an AA filter, and that often results in some level of painterly look when you check the files at 100% on your monitor (is it what you call a digital look?). That is strongly influenced by the RAW converter used, but does overall typically not translate in any particular problem in print anyway.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 08:09:39 PM »
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I've never heard anyone complain about the 1Ds2 build quality before. It's certainly sturdy and heavy enough. I can't say that I feel the same way about Canon lenses but that's a different gripe

I agree that there should be and could be a sub $10K MFDB. For some reason the manufacturers are keeping the prices up and justifying it with added features. I happen to know that the actual ex-factory cost of a back like the P25 is around $5K, and the R&D which went into that back has already been recouped. I think they could stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap at $8K and watch the medium format market boom. Oh well...
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khwanaon
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 08:20:50 PM »
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I've never heard anyone complain about the 1Ds2 build quality before. It's certainly sturdy and heavy enough. I can't say that I feel the same way about Canon lenses but that's a different gripe

I agree that there should be and could be a sub $10K MFDB. For some reason the manufacturers are keeping the prices up and justifying it with added features. I happen to know that the actual ex-factory cost of a back like the P25 is around $5K, and the R&D which went into that back has already been recouped. I think they could stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap at $8K and watch the medium format market boom. Oh well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Graham,

you must have got wrong information: $5k is already about the price of a 22pmx CCD, with labour work when you need to replace a defective CCD. The ex-factory costs are far from these 5k. what many also forget: when a CCD was the most costly part in a dmfb at the begining of the digital age, it is now only a fraction of it. Today, firm- and software costs (which have also to be calculated in the porduction costs) are representing 30 to 40% of the costs of such a mfdb.

Aon
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 08:43:36 PM »
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Graham,

you must have got wrong information: $5k is already about the price of a 22pmx CCD,

Ok, here is a more thorough answer.

The rest of the unit really isn't expensive (<$500). The price of the sensor does depend on quantity. If you order 500 of the KAF-22000CE, they cost $5245 each. If you order 1000 it drops to $4222 each. (These are the standard prices at least. Perhaps the big players get a sweeter deal.) So I maintain that if Phase One decided to attack the market with an $8K P25, it could easily be done.
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khwanaon
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 08:52:57 PM »
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Ok, here is a more thorough answer.

The rest of the unit really isn't expensive (<$500). The price of the sensor does depend on quantity. If you order 500 of the KAF-22000CE, they cost $5245 each. If you order 1000 it drops to $4222 each. (These are the standard prices at least. Perhaps the big players get a sweeter deal.) So I maintain that if Phase One decided to attack the market with an $8K P25, it could easily be done.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Graham

I understand it this way as well, but let me tell you that no mfdb manufacturer will "sign" for 1000 ++ CCD's. You forget in your calculation the firm- and software costs: look how many people are involved in firm- and software. It is not 1 or 2, but teams of 10+ involved. You have to calculate and add the costs for a 3-Year warranty in the back costs. And you forget labour costs: in Danemark/Sweeden and Switzerland, you can imagine what those costs can be. And last but not least, any company in the world has to work with a minimum profit margin of 30 to 40%. When you calculate all these costs you are far from the $ 5k, very far.

Aon
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khwanaon
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 09:05:41 PM »
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Ok, here is a more thorough answer.

The rest of the unit really isn't expensive (<$500). The price of the sensor does depend on quantity. If you order 500 of the KAF-22000CE, they cost $5245 each. If you order 1000 it drops to $4222 each. (These are the standard prices at least. Perhaps the big players get a sweeter deal.) So I maintain that if Phase One decided to attack the market with an $8K P25, it could easily be done.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Graham,

another thing you forget: those backs are then shipped from the factory (shiping costs of about $ 200) NOT directly to endusers, but to distributors and/or dealers. Do you think that a profit margin for those people, with the necessary sales and support struture in thier company does not need as well a certain profit margin? I doubt any distributor would sell a mfdb for $ 800 to 1'000 (typical 10 - 15% dealer margin). It needs for them as well a minimum of 30%.

Aon
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 09:06:45 PM »
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No I didn't forget. There is no new software or firmware to develop for the P25. It's already been written years ago!

I think it would be a safe bet to buy 1000 sensors if they were aiming for a $8K MSRP. The price shift would substantially swell the size of the MF digital market. If so, the total parts cost come to something like $4500. Another $500 should more than cover the minimal assembly and testing, even in Cph. (Btw I have been to the P1 HQ in Copenhagen and watched prototypes being put together).

Feel free to disagree, but look at the mamiya ZD. It uses a 22 MP sensor PLUS includes a whole MF camera AND they have all the R&D costs to cover because this is a new product. It still sells for $12K.
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 09:14:17 PM »
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Graham,

another thing you forget: those backs are then shipped from the factory (shiping costs of about $ 200) NOT directly to endusers, but to distributors and/or dealers. Do you think that a profit margin for those people, with the necessary sales and support struture in thier company does not need as well a certain profit margin? I doubt any distributor would sell a mfdb for $ 800 to 1'000 (typical 10 - 15% dealer margin). It needs for them as well a minimum of 30%.

Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

$200 sounds extreme to me, and assumes that each dealer gets just one. Ship ten to a dealer for $100 and the cost becomes trivial.

Of course the dealers would sell this product. They will make the same profit through volume rather than per unit margin.
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bcroslin
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2006, 09:20:05 PM »
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If you want to go MFD it can be done for under 10k. There have been refurbished Leaf and Phase backs offered in this forum for under 8k. I was able to score a Leaf Valeo Wi 22 for under 10k. If you're serious enough it's do-able.

My guess is that you're not serious. You'd rather gripe like the rest of the almost-mfd'ers that hang around this forum.
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khwanaon
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 09:50:39 PM »
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If you want to go MFD it can be done for under 10k. There have been refurbished Leaf and Phase backs offered in this forum for under 8k. I was able to score a Leaf Valeo Wi 22 for under 10k. If you're serious enough it's do-able.

My guess is that you're not serious. You'd rather gripe like the rest of the almost-mfd'ers that hang around this forum.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I would suggest you to ask PO what re-furbished in reality means: you would be surprised. I have no idea what Leaf understand under re-furbished.

Aon
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khwanaon
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 10:09:58 PM »
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$200 sounds extreme to me, and assumes that each dealer gets just one. Ship ten to a dealer for $100 and the cost becomes trivial.

Of course the dealers would sell this product. They will make the same profit through volume rather than per unit margin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85749\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sorry, Graham, with all due respect: a (new) mfdb back (22 mpx) has ex-factory costs which lie already over $ 8k. And in this price you don't have the manufacturer, the distributor margin, the shipment costs included (not to speak about warranty = typicaly $ 2k per year).

There is a reason why those (new, i insist) mfdb are not sold at $8k. We are not in a consumer market, but in a small high-end market (7 to 10 tausend mfdb sold worlwide yearly?). Volume sales cannot be compared with normal volumes sales as it happens with consumer products. And nobody wants (can) to sell without making a gross margin, nor a manufacturer, nor a distributor.

As for Mamiya ZD: it sells at $ 12k, yes. Do you know why the Mamiya optic/photo division was sold? Any idea how much this ZD and 22 mpx back has cost to Mamiya and the current financial balance of this product for them?

When it comes to re-furbished backs, then one has to define and explain what the word "re-furbished" in reality means, in the eyes of a back manufacturer. Yes, you can have a 22 mpx back, re-furbished, but then you have to know what you buy. If you agree with it, then all is fine.

But you have the right to disagree as well. It is a simple calculation matter, based on facts and company rules to cover costs.

However, and here we agree all, it would be great to have a (new) mfdb at this (enduser) price of $ 8k.

Aon
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James Russell
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 10:36:06 PM »
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hello
not really a question but more of a gripe: I have the canon 1Ds MkII and it is a good camera no doubt but I would rather use something else.....but i cant! I cant afford the MF backs and there is nothing inbetween, pricewise. in the old days new cameras came out all the time, but since the 1ds came out it has been that or $15-$35k mf backs that arent worth the $$$........and dont bring up the ZD because I have seen all those crappy images people have posted, they LOOK digital. I have a contax 645 and I am holding onto hope that a digital back will surface for under 10k but getting tired of waiting.........why doesnt someone come out with a new camera like the canon that is not a 35mm toy??? All those 35mm digi cameras (1Ds, 5d, nikon) are weak. Theimages they produce are pretty good but they arent big and sturdy like a real camera. I loved the RZ and I know others do also, cant someone make a great camera with a bright viewfinder that feels/focuses like a great camera ( RZ, contax, pentax 6x7, hassy 500 ).....I challenge someone to do it! Hah!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think your really reading the situation properly.

Recently Leaf was offering the Leaf 17 aptus returned from a large upgrade purchase, at around 7 thousand each, which was a heck of a deal.

Even going to a Leaf 22 if you shop around can come in at around 18 grand.  That may seem like a large buy in until you figure the years of use.

I am positive I will get a minimum 5 years out of my A-22 and that is around $3,500 per year.

Consequently using the 1ds(1 and 2) i replace those every 18 months and usually the resale is 1/2 of the original purchase price which is about $4,000 in depreciation for 18 months so the numbers are about equal though I get a better file and a better overal crop factor and presentation from the medium format equipment.

As far as Cameras you mentioned you already have a Contax investment so the camera cost is not an issue, still if bought correctly mf cameras like the Contax are a bargain.

In my 2 bodies, 2 finders, 10 lenses I have less than $10,000 invested which is actually less than the same I would invest in lenses and bodies of even a 35mm film camera system.

With the Contax I doubt if prices will drop in a few years and if recent trends continue they will rise in price.

Medium format really isn't that expensive if you buy carefully.

The key is to know which camera and back that fits your needs and look at it as a long term purchase.

IMO

JR

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« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 10:55:48 PM by James Russell » Logged
mcfoto
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2006, 01:01:12 AM »
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hello
not really a question but more of a gripe: I have the canon 1Ds MkII and it is a good camera no doubt but I would rather use something else.....but i cant! I cant afford the MF backs and there is nothing inbetween, pricewise. in the old days new cameras came out all the time, but since the 1ds came out it has been that or $15-$35k mf backs that arent worth the $$$........and dont bring up the ZD because I have seen all those crappy images people have posted, they LOOK digital. I have a contax 645 and I am holding onto hope that a digital back will surface for under 10k but getting tired of waiting.........why doesnt someone come out with a new camera like the canon that is not a 35mm toy??? All those 35mm digi cameras (1Ds, 5d, nikon) are weak. Theimages they produce are pretty good but they arent big and sturdy like a real camera. I loved the RZ and I know others do also, cant someone make a great camera with a bright viewfinder that feels/focuses like a great camera ( RZ, contax, pentax 6x7, hassy 500 ).....I challenge someone to do it! Hah!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Quote

Hi
The only way you are going to find out is test the digital backs yourself. If that means renting do it. Since you already own a Contax look at Leaf & Phase. As far as the ZD is concerned I own one and now process the files in RAW DEVELOPER and the files are close to the Aptus 22. They both use the same Dalsa chip and both have a film like quality. Test before you buy anything.
Thanks Denis
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2006, 01:55:41 AM »
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Dont forget about looking into leasing a DB over 2-3 years.
I have just done this on a re-manufactured Leaf Aptus 22.

The great thing with the way leasing works (here in UK at least - not sure about other countries) at the end of the lease I just pay one more months payment as a "payout figure" and then the DB requires no more payments - EVER! And of course all the monthly payments are fully tax deductible. It works out better for me than forking out 11500 upfront.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 02:10:41 AM by AndrewDyer » Logged

pixelseeker
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2006, 10:16:05 AM »
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If the digital back manufacturers reduce the price of the their back enough to reduce their margins by 1/2 they would have to sell twice as many backs just to make the same amount of money.

There is a very limited amount of photographers that will use MF even if the cost of the camera, backs and lenses was the same as that of 35 mm sized cameras.

Medium format is for a special market segment and will never reach number of user like those of the smaller formats.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2006, 10:35:36 AM »
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If the digital back manufacturers reduce the price of the their back enough to reduce their margins by 1/2 they would have to sell twice as many backs just to make the same amount of money.

There is a very limited amount of photographers that will use MF even if the cost of the camera, backs and lenses was the same as that of 35 mm sized cameras.

Yes, and I think they would sell twice as many or more. Look at the film days. There were plenty more pro MF users then even if they did cost a lot more than 35mm film setups. They regretfully abandoned MF by the boatload due almost entirely to price. I've chatted with so many photographers who are using 35mm digital and still have their MF gear because "they can't bear to part with it".
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RicAgu
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2006, 11:10:00 AM »
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As James said

There were some great prices on Aptus 17's.  You can get into Valeo's for $5k-$7k and they do produce stunning images.  although the whole Harddrive QPAX viewer is a bit cumbersom it is not terrible.  The RZ was a lot heavier.  You already have a Contax and there are mounts out there.

You can pick up P20's for under $10k as well, even though it gives you a Square chip it still gives you an amzing file and lets you use the waist level finder on the Contax which is great.

On the profit margin.  This is all debatable.  Retail locations only make 8% profit on Apple products.  That is nothing.  But they want to draw you in to buy all the other accesories you will need.  Like camera stores used to do as wel.  They wanted to sell you film, CF cards, wipes, lens caps, camera bags, tripods, paper, gels, etc..etc..etc..

As someone said that they would have to sell twice as much to make it profitable.  I know they would sell four times as much if they made a P20 at $5k and a P25 at $8k.  You have all the weekend warriors and photo vest crowd that don't want to spend $15k on a used back.  But would spend under $10k.

Backs are out there being returned and the people getting the sweet deals are the people that know the retailors of these systems.  This is why I don't care about retailors, no retailor ever helped me and the only retail I use is B&H and K&M and don't expect anything from them other than ROCK BOTTOM PRICES.  The only good retailor I use on a regular basis is Sammy's and they have been great.  I have never met a person there either, it has all been phone orders.

With the way the internet sells today.  Phase and all the makers could sell online only and cut out the retailors.  They stock it at their facility they drop ship direct where the customer pays shipping.  No need for US warehousing.  You have SVEN in the warehouse being told what mount to put on the back.  He tests it for accurate focus and you ship it out.  You buy on line if something happens you have an AMAZING warranty return from Phase.  I am sure Leaf and Sinar can do the same thing.  You then make all the backs available from the Hassy V to the Contax 645 and everything in between.  You reopen the use of the Hassy V and the Contax not just the AFD II and H1.  The greed of the retail market is what killed the other cameras.  If the retailor wants to order it and have his customer.  They can order the same way and mark it up 8% and then they can talk the shit that for the extra 8% you get the support we can give you and have come to trust. They then can sell them the flying butterfly, air rocket, lens cloth, camera bodies and lenses.  As a MFDB maker you can hire a teacher to give classes once a month in the cities that require, so they learn your software.  Won't cost you anything, you hire the guy to teach the class rent the studio for the day.  Charge $175 to $250 per student and your set.  Leaf does this in NYC and LA every month.

The only retailor I like was Ken Hansen.  FC, L&R and MOST of the others only care if you're Weber or Meisel and if you think otherwise you are wrong and they have snowed you.

Hell you can even have  SVEN making Bronica mounts, Hassy V mounts that do not require a cable, plates for the RZ so you can fit any mounted back.

Why isn't this being done?  Because all the backroom behind the door deals that goes on between all the greed of the retailor, manufacturer and reps.  Why doesn't B&H sell this stuff?  Because they do not need all the BULLSHIT that goes on here.  They are laughing all the way to the bank every Friday at 1pm.

I go to B&H once a month and everytime I go there I see some one famous and I am NOT talking screech.  Francis Ford Coppola, Rod Stewart, Billy Joel, the Albino Priest guy from Davinci Code, David Bowie and the list goes on.  Do you think Coppola can't call his rep at Arri and say I want this and get it.

SO TO ALL MFDB MAKERS.  MAKE SOME MONEY AND KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY!

 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 11:18:22 AM by RicAgu » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2006, 11:23:05 AM »
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You have SVEN in the warehouse being told what mount to put on the back.

...except that Phase One is Danish so he's called Carsten
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James Russell
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2006, 12:25:09 PM »
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Phase and all the makers could sell online only and cut out the retailors.



SO TO ALL MFDB MAKERS.  MAKE SOME MONEY AND KEEP EVERYONE HAPPY!

 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, Ric on this I disagree.  Medium format is a lot differnet end user than the casual Nikon D2x buyer.

I know of two very good dealers, both in atlanta and both frequent this forum (Dave Gallagher and Steve Hendrix) that offer service way beyond the call and quite frankly a large number of their customers would have had triple the learning curve if it wasn't for them.

As you know medium format digital takes a digital photography to a much higher level of complexity and reward.

My take on Samy's is 180 from you.  For 10 years I have bought, rented, bargained and delt with 75% of the people that come and go from the Fairfax and Venice stores and a large part of this has been far from pleasurable, informative of even fair.  Rental is good, sales are obtuse at best.

If you walk into Samy's to buy a digital product you better do your homework first because they are absoulutely no help when it comes to real world information.

Personally there is a place for the B+H and Samy's cash and carry type of stores, but not when it comes to specialized medium format backs and software.

In fact I don't know how the good dealers really make a profit on medium format as the tech calls, instructions, free demos etc. seem to be almost consuming.

Let's face it these are specialized items and not every photographer will do their homework and learn the process from start to finish.  Most want training and once they buy in expect most of that training to come from the dealer . . . usually for free.

IMO

JR
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 12:35:32 PM by James Russell » Logged
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