Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: freedom of choice?canons or nothing  (Read 17065 times)
pss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 960


WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2006, 01:12:30 PM »
ReplyReply

P20 is 8000 list, P21 is 11000 list, P30 is 17000 list....ALL of them easily outperform canon in terms of file quality (obviously not speed, handling, high asa...although the P21 is fast and the 800asa i am getting from my P30 makes me want the P30+ even more...)
all of these can be had with trade in deals....everybody who is serious can have a back in their hands for a very reasonable amount....
do your own footwork, but i can tell you that i was offered a brandnew p30 (any mount) for 12000...don't ask me how i did that or through who, yes there was a trade in deal involved, but i did not even have to find a back on ebay.....
sinar is offering their e75 for 12000off (trade in any back) until jan 07....please don't tell me that it is  impossible to get into DMF......
Logged

BJL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5140


« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2006, 01:30:54 PM »
ReplyReply

I have heard from sources like Thom Hogan that there is typically a multiplier of about three between component cost to manufacturer and its impact on retail price. For example, mainstream DSLR sensors probably cost about $100, which adds about $300 to the retail price, fitting the price gap of $300-$400 between entry level film SLRs and entry level digital SLRs.

And that is in a highly competitive sector, so with high end gear like MFDB's, I would expect a similar or greater multiplier. So a $5000 price for the sensor could easily contribute $15,000 to the retail price.
Logged
abrehm
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 38


« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2006, 01:31:34 PM »
ReplyReply

the gap between 35mm and MF is why i hope the ZD and Pentax 645D do well.  I would be a potential buyer of one of these system assuming they get released in the states.  Give the amount of field work i would be doing I am leaning more towards the pentax, but in the end availability and price will dictate what I purchase.

Andy
Logged
RicAgu
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 267


« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2006, 02:17:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Hello James,

Hows' the Zoerk working out?

I agree that the end user of a MFDB would be different than the D2X shooter.  But you have a lot of people that woudl ahve gotten into P20, V17-22, A17-22 if there was some cooperation between the manufacturer.  You and I both know there is so much backroom BS going you can't keep track.  When I was talking about dealers I should have been clear that it was dealers in the NYC & LA market.  I have a great dealer in Badger Graphic out in Wisconsin, but to my knowledge since my last purchase i believe they only handle 35 digital.

I have read Steve's post on these forums and have much respect for him and his orginization.  I actually called there one day not being a customer and they answered a question I had.

I am not saying they're all bad.

But I think if you can get into digital and pay for a class for a small amount over a two three day period.  Many people would do it.

On the Samy's front.  You and I both dislike the same NYC establishments.  I have never had to buy MFDB Digital in LA but I bought my 1ds Mark II's from them, my 5d, a ton of Profoto gear and everytime they really helped me out.  Although, I do have a wonderful personal sales rep there, whom I have never met.  When the 1ds MII's came out and everyone was charging $8500+ for it and had you waiting weeks to get it.  Sammy's came through with two at $7,500.00.  When no one had the H1 120 macro lens in stock and there were only three or four in NYC, Sammy's got me one at the ticket price.

I try not to bother anyone when I buy something.  I bother them before I get it, ask the questions then purchase it.  I never called any one to figure out my RZ, my Contax, my Pentax 67, my Rollie 6008i.  All though they are different types of questions.

If I had known of Steve I would most likely had bought everything there.  Hell, you can get to Atlanta and back in one day for $125.00 on Delta. Luckily it is their HUB so you can get tickets for nothing.  GOD I HOPE US SCARE DOES NOT BUY THEM.

But the issue is that they can sell direct, offer a class and if retail wants to carry it, they can and market it up a certain percentage to offer their support and classes.  Hell, they can even offer the classes and make the money themselves.  But at the end of the day, all the back room stuff killed off Bronia almost Mamiya.  Pentax would never have beeb viable and I think Contax saw the sales slipping away to the H1.







Quote
Well, Ric on this I disagree. Medium format is a lot differnet end user than the casual Nikon D2x buyer.

I know of two very good dealers, both in atlanta and both frequent this forum (Dave Gallagher and Steve Hendrix) that offer service way beyond the call and quite frankly a large number of their customers would have had triple the learning curve if it wasn't for them.

As you know medium format digital takes a digital photography to a much higher level of complexity and reward.

My take on Samy's is 180 from you. For 10 years I have bought, rented, bargained and delt with 75% of the people that come and go from the Fairfax and Venice stores and a large part of this has been far from pleasurable, informative of even fair. Rental is good, sales are obtuse at best.

If you walk into Samy's to buy a digital product you better do your homework first because they are absoulutely no help when it comes to real world information.

Personally there is a place for the B+H and Samy's cash and carry type of stores, but not when it comes to specialized medium format backs and software.

In fact I don't know how the good dealers really make a profit on medium format as the tech calls, instructions, free demos etc. seem to be almost consuming.

Let's face it these are specialized items and not every photographer will do their homework and learn the process from start to finish. Most want training and once they buy in expect most of that training to come from the dealer . . . usually for free.

IMO

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85817\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 03:29:43 PM by RicAgu » Logged
yodelyo
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2006, 04:29:53 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
I've never heard anyone complain about the 1Ds2 build quality before. It's certainly sturdy and heavy enough. I can't say that I feel the same way about Canon lenses but that's a different gripe

I agree that there should be and could be a sub $10K MFDB. For some reason the manufacturers are keeping the prices up and justifying it with added features. I happen to know that the actual ex-factory cost of a back like the P25 is around $5K, and the R&D which went into that back has already been recouped. I think they could stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap at $8K and watch the medium format market boom. Oh well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85734\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i liked your response the best so this is the one i am responding to.........yeah, the 1Ds is a solid built camera but geez, I want to focus the camera with my hand and switch f stops manually on a solid lens barrel, you know, like a real camera, an RZ or hassy or something. remember how good it felt to look through a pentax 6 x 7 and know that your subject was in focus because you could SEE it! Hey, I am only 36 and I remember.

I would easily pay 8k for a great digi back for my contax, something where I could shoot a job at 400ASA and not worry about the noise......and i would not use a square chip ever, i like my lenses to work how they were designed to. so who has a P25 or leaf22 for me for 8k, anybody out there?
Logged
AndrewDyer
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125


WWW
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2006, 06:07:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Not everyone complains about the price of the digital backs.

Would that be because the professionals that actually make money from photography can see that it is worth it? Is it just the pro-sumers and amateurs that are compaining?

That is not meant as an insult to anyone that has commented on the expense as you all may be excellent photographers - but are you making money from your passion?

If it is just a hobby for some here then I suggest for the sake of your sanity and contentment with life to enjoy your hobby with MF film or digital 35mm SLR's, instead of wasting time compaining about something that you cannot afford. Put it on the same wish list as the Red Ferrari and be done with it.
There will always be something that is not attainable.

If you are a professional that makes money from this then I cannot see how it is too expensive.
I am only just starting in the "professional" arena... in fact I have never made a cent from a photo I have taken... but I can see that the Aptus 22 I have on order is worth every cent I will pay for it. I am confident in my ability to make an image that it will eventually pay for itself.
I feel that I cannot offer anything less than this level of quality to my prospective clients.
As I am not a "rich boy" it has taken me a lot longer than I would like to reach this stage of getting the back but if that is what I feel is necessary to do my job then so be it.

It is a small field and with the increasing popularity of "happy snap" little cameras that take semi-ok pictures, I do not see the medium format industry getting so big that they can afford to sell thousands more for half the price.
It is not going to change any time soon so it is best to move on from complaining about the price and focus on more important things.

Good luck to you all.
Logged

pss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 960


WWW
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2006, 06:12:05 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Not everyone complains about the price of the digital backs.

Would that be because the professionals that actually make money from photography can see that it is worth it? Is it just the pro-sumers and amateurs that are compaining?

That is not meant as an insult to anyone that has commented on the expense as you all may be excellent photographers - but are you making money from your passion?

If it is just a hobby for some here then I suggest for the sake of your sanity and contentment with life to enjoy your hobby with MF film or digital 35mm SLR's, instead of wasting time compaining about something that you cannot afford. Put it on the same wish list as the Red Ferrari and be done with it.
There will always be something that is not attainable.

If you are a professional that makes money from this then I cannot see how it is too expensive.
I am only just starting in the "professional" arena... in fact I have never made a cent from a photo I have taken... but I can see that the Aptus 22 I have on order is worth every cent I will pay for it. I am confident in my ability to make an image that it will eventually pay for itself.
I feel that I cannot offer anything less than this level of quality to my prospective clients.
As I am not a "rich boy" it has taken me a lot longer than I would like to reach this stage of getting the back but if that is what I feel is necessary to do my job then so be it.

It is a small field and with the increasing popularity of "happy snap" little cameras that take semi-ok pictures, I do not see the medium format industry getting so big that they can afford to sell thousands more for half the price.
It is not going to change any time soon so it is best to move on from complaining about the price and focus on more important things.

Good luck to you all.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
AMEN
Logged

rethmeier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 780


WWW
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2006, 06:24:09 PM »
ReplyReply

Well said Andrew!
You hid the nail on it's head!
Cheers,
Willem.
Logged

Willem Rethmeier
www.willemrethmeier.com
Sydney Australia
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2006, 06:24:16 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
If you are a professional that makes money from this then I cannot see how it is too expensive.

Try living in a country where the average income is $7000/year! (and photography budgets are equally low)
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
AndrewDyer
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125


WWW
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2006, 06:39:51 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Try living in a country where the average income is $7000/year! (and photography budgets are equally low)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85876\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The song remains the same.
I am sure there are people in countries that make less than $7000/year that would like a
MFDB as well. But if it not attainable then that is the way the cookie crumbles... Life in this world can suck!
If you are talking about your situation be happy with your Canon.
Judging by your website it does a wonderful job.
Regards
Logged

mcfoto
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 938


WWW
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2006, 07:16:28 PM »
ReplyReply

Hi
This is what I do at the moment with MFD, rent on the jobs that require it. On AD jobs the client pays for the rental of equioment including a MFD back. I own my camera kit and you have a Contax 645 af camera. The big advantage to this is that you will learn which brand you like best. I agree a square chip would drive me nuts, been there with the Kodax back. I have used the Valeo 6, and when I first used the Valeo 22 ( now Aptus 22 ) I got my lenses back. I felt the same way when I went from the Canon 10D to the 5D. I also talked to a senior Leaf person and he said it takes at least $1 m to develope a new back! Also these larger chips are way more expensive to make and have a big failure rate in manufacturing. I have heard that the Dalsa chip 22mp costs around $3000.00 alone. My dream is to own a Aptus 75s ( 1.1 recycle ). So in the meantime I will use my ZD for personal & editorial jobs, plus I have the 5D for higher iso. When the Aptus 75s comes uo for rental I will use it. Hope this helps.
Thanks Denis
Logged

Denis Montalbetti
Montalbetti+Campbell
www.montalbetticampbell.com
nicolaasdb
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 213


WWW
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2006, 07:33:01 PM »
ReplyReply

It would be nice when Ferrari drops the price of their cars to about $40K instead of the $360.000

but you get what you pay for!!

It is expensive to reseach and develope a MF dig.back and the buyers market is small, lower prices won't change this much!!

It is still a small investment compared to what other businesses have to invest in their equipment, don't get me wrong I wish there was a cheaper solution (just dropped over 30K for a back and camera equipment, more harddrives space etc!...and let's not forget insurrances!!)

I love my ds1MkII camera...never had a problem with it (shot over 200.000 images in the last 2 years with it...only problem was worn out shutter, which was replaced under warranty)

BUT I don't like the 35mm format and the info I lose in the crop to 8.5x11.....the MFDB gives me the 16bit film look that I need and deserve....because I hated digital for the longest time (even a little with my canon) I don't want to suffer quality for technology....suffering financially I can deal with.

I went for the A65, tested the A75 for a couple of weeks and the 75 was just toooo slowwwww...have an order in for the 65s and hoping that this is the answer to having the (almost) the same speed as with my canon.

I read that the ZD is not 16bit.....so what's the use of switching..because Canon files are top of the line....only my Leaf files are better.
Logged
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2006, 07:55:08 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
If you are talking about your situation be happy with your Canon.
Judging by your website it does a wonderful job.

I'm not happy with the 35mm DSLR files. That's reason enough. Look, I was responding to the comment that "if you're a pro, you can afford it". Clearly not always true.
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2006, 08:22:09 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote
It would be nice when Ferrari drops the price of their cars to about $40K instead of the $360.000

but you get what you pay for!!

I don't think the Ferrari analogy works at all. The market for cars is HUGE - in the tens of millions, and there is not another market (equivalent of DSLRs) eating away at the car market. In other words, the car market is huge, has strong demand, no competition, and there is room for many profitable players. Ferrari can afford to serve a niche.

The MFDB back market is in the region of 10,000 per annum, and many of the participants in this market (and MF market) are facing difficulties. Plus the market as a whole is under attack from Canon DSLRs *mainly due to price*. This market needs to compete on price, or more participants will go under.
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
nicolaasdb
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 213


WWW
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2006, 11:24:08 PM »
ReplyReply

the price of a MFDB will not go down by much...exactly because of the fact that the market is only about 10.000 units and they are serving a niche market (like Ferrari) the rest of the market is very well served by great 35mm dslr's...the nikon's and canon's...now the new Sony...the sensors are getting better and better and the prices are coming down.

I bought my first Dslr (a  nikon D100) for 2 grand!! Now a much better camera goes for under 1K.

I hope the MFDB come down in price because I would like to have 2 or 3 (like when I was shooting film) but I don't see it happen...and I can't wait for it to happen....because the digital technology makes us much more than photographers......if you want to make a living you got to also take care of the pre and post-production (and that takes a lot of expensive computer power).
Compared to the computers and all other soft- and hardware (storage) the MFDB is actually pretty cheap!!

Take also into account that when my Ds1MarkII need to be updated..I need to put down another 8 grand...when I update (upgrade) my MFDB I just pay the difference or get a great discount toward the newer back.
Logged
ctz
Full Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 179


« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2006, 02:59:44 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Try living in a country where the average income is $7000/year! (and photography budgets are equally low)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85876\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

well, i live in a country were the average income is not even 7000, is like 2-3000euros ayear, and still, there's more than 10 photographers i know that have bought a MFDB solution just in the last couple of months. compared to the small community of photographers and the equal low photography budgets this looks huge.

but if you're making a living from photography you'd probably spend in 12 months thousands of euros on film, e6, polaroids and scannings, anyway. just as much as a leasing rate.
not to mention how harder it is to find a proper lab and a proper scanner these days.
or, try to convince a client to wait for a polaroid 2 minutes (for several times).

one might try the 1ds2 route, but try to crop 60% from one 16mp image (at art director's request) and still print a decent 70X100cm poster...
so, as canon doesn't look like coming with anything new in the near future you have to look closer at mfdb. even you regard its price in the ferrari's zone.

as pss (paul schefz) once wrote, let's just compare our investments with those found in other businesses and we may find those even harder.



tintareanudotcom
Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4053



« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2006, 04:05:30 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
the price of a MFDB will not go down by much...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85902\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The chip prices will fall; or at least the prices of the current-sized chips will fall indue course, look at the APS-sized SLRs and the way the prices have started falling there -

Of course, by the time we can really afford MF, the ADs will be saying that they insist on digital 8x10 in 48 bits per colour because nothing else is good enough for Naomi's skin pores.

Edmund
Logged
James Russell
Guest
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2006, 09:30:30 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
The chip prices will fall; or at least the prices of the current-sized chips will fall indue course, look at the APS-sized SLRs and the way the prices have started falling there -

Of course, by the time we can really afford MF, the ADs will be saying that they insist on digital 8x10 in 48 bits per colour because nothing else is good enough for Naomi's skin pores.

Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Since the 17 to 22mp cameras, few if any clients are asking for more detail, or larger file sizes.

The choice to move to higher density backs is the photographer, not the client, and most photographers have moved only for higher iso, better lcds, etc.

Of the photographers I know if given the option they would rather have larger chips with the same resolution with higher iso, rather than ever increasing megabytes.

Still, clients rarely request anything and the few request that come up are usually from unknowing production people.

What is needed and wanted is higher iso, easier, faster post production and more stable software.

Still, I don't understand the problems of cost with these cameras.  An A-22 and/or P25 can be bought for 15 to 18k and will easily work for 5 years or more, so in the land of professional photography that is less than the cost of upgrading your dslr every 12 months and you get a much better file in the process.

For serious amateurs, shoot film.  There are some amazing film cameras out there for fractions of their original prices.

JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
Logged
Fritzer
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 211


« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2006, 10:39:37 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
Try living in a country where the average income is $7000/year! (and photography budgets are equally low)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=85876\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


But what's your point ? Do you really expect DB manufacturers to adjust their prices according to your country's GNP ?
I do not know how many people Leaf or Phase have working on their backs, what their pay is and how many items they sell each year, so I won't even start commenting on prices.

However, the other day I went through my job files for this year, to calculate what I charged my clients for ( analog ) film & processing and polaroid.
It's been a slow year, and I shoot low volume ( still life, 2-3 shots per shooting day ).

It adds up to roughly 25k , and the year isn't over yet, and personal work is not included.
In my case, I do not need to spend much on file processing, data storage and such, and can still charge the same or even slightly more when shooting digital compared to using film.
A few other aspects factored in, an Aptus 75 will be paid for within 2 years or less.

I'm working in both Germany and the US, which means I get low to decent budgets ( that's Western standards ), nothing too exciting.

That said, I agree with the above postings, if you can't finance a DB, you are probably not in a position to actually need one, being a professional photographer for advertising .
At this point, it might make more sense to stick to film for LF or MF, or just use a DSLR if you don't need camera movements and can accept the characteristics of 35mm bodies.

Just my 2 cents...

Best,
Tom
Logged
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2006, 11:54:53 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote
well, i live in a country were the average income is not even 7000, is like 2-3000euros ayear, and still, there's more than 10 photographers i know that have bought a MFDB solution just in the last couple of months.

You must have larger budgets there. There isn't a single MFDB in the country here. It's only thanks to a few overseas clients that I make anything at all

Quote
but if you're making a living from photography you'd probably spend in 12 months thousands of euros on film, e6, polaroids and scannings, anyway. just as much as a leasing rate.

The alternative isn't film, it's 35mm DSLR.

Quote
not to mention how harder it is to find a proper lab and a proper scanner these days.

Yes, another compelling reason to go digital.

Quote
But what's your point ? Do you really expect DB manufacturers to adjust their prices according to your country's GNP ?

Why not? It's been happening with many other goods for years. The same model car can be nearly half the price in one country compared to another.

Quote
I'm working in both Germany and the US which means I get low to decent budgets

Aren't they pretty much the two most lucrative markets in the world for photographers?

Quote
That said, I agree with the above postings, if you can't finance a DB, you are probably not in a position to actually need one

Well there are three good reasons: to be happy with the quality I provide my clients, to have a competitive advantage, and to be competitive in overseas markets which I am approaching.

Anyway this is getting a bit off track.

The MFDB manufacturers rely entirely on the health of the medium format market. The MF market is looking anything but healthy at the moment due to the MFDB price barrier. If the MFDB manufacturers want to secure their own future they need to help the market grow by introducing more affordable backs, not more features. Pretty simple. Just my $0.02
« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 12:38:21 PM by foto-z » Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad