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Author Topic: Sunrise B&N  (Read 22081 times)
howard smith
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« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2005, 03:22:13 PM »
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"i like the opinions, but to remove the sea in a seascape is  strange, ... ."

I doubt it.  And I was not suggesting you remove the sea from a sea scape.  And if the sea adds no value or detracts, toss it.

And the weeds in the left foreground need to go, unless this is a weed scape.
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seberri
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« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2005, 04:28:15 PM »
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Lisa  If i remove the left part and reduce the mist i have better to throw  directly the foto ...  the main interrest for me in this foto  is  erased moutains by the  morning light
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macgyver
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2005, 07:00:03 PM »
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I like the left hand 1.4 of the photo, the mountain's fade into the mist (I think) adds a nice bit of atmospherics to the picture.

And I don't think it is bad to say that you won't crop that out.  I've had photos before (and I am thinking of a particular recent shot) that neary everyone I talked to told me to crop the lower portion of the image out, but that was my favorite part.  Sometimes you just have to make up your mind, even if you still want critics.

As a general rule, I'm not a huge fan of black and white, most especially in landscapes.  To me, color is an unremovable part of the land.

-macgyver
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seberri
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« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2005, 01:53:44 AM »
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generally  when I see a few great shots from someone i like very much his opinion not waiting at all for a WOW !  but to become a bit better .. to learn
"crop there " , "add  a bit contrast in the clouds" , "you must respect the rule of 3 parts" ... and so on is not the best you can say to help someone, there are allways more technical points or subtils points to speak about

I don't want to see your fotos to critic them but to know who speaks and eventually to learn
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Ray
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« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2005, 06:53:13 AM »
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you could but you don't ...
It's a matter of priorities. We generally do what's most important to us at the time. There are many demands upon my attention and showing my photos on the net would increase those demands.

I am actually partly in agreement with you. If your creation is criticised then there's a reaction to be 'up in arms'. I understand that. It's also part of the reason why I don't show my photos on the net. If someone criticised my photos in a negative manner or a derogatory manner (or perhaps any manner at all), I'd be up in arms.

Ultimately, you have to learn to have the confidence in your own assessment of your own images.
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jani
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« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2005, 08:10:28 AM »
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Ray I am not up in arm at all, and the question once more is not the critic but who critic and the value of that critic .... croping left side here is a nonsense
No, it's not "nonsense".

It's exactly that attitude which people react (badly) to.

Fine, you disagree with those who suggest that you crop your image, that is okay.

But cropping it is not "nonsense", it's an opinion, or a criticism of your image.

If you can't take such criticism without labeling it as "nonsense" or editing your posts after the fact to make them look better, I strongly suggest that you don't post your images at all.

Of course, that's just my opinion on your posting style.


As for the image, I disagree with those who want to crop the left part, I think it's part of what actually makes the image work. The softness and low contrast in the fog gives the image a dream-like quality that appeals to me.

Yes, the straws in the lower left corner are distracting, and you should probably do something about those.


And since it seems to matter to you, you may browse through my publically available images on my web site (the link is included in every article).
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Jan
howard smith
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« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2005, 03:47:28 PM »
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"The forums here and at every other photography site on the internet (fredmiranda, etc.) are not a final exam for a graded photography course."  So what?

"Their purpose is to facilitate the discussion of photography ..."  I agree.  And that is also why I favor non-participation by the photographer.  The imae should reperesent his best efforts.  When you get every other post as a comment from the photogrpaher about how he likes the image the way it is, the discussion gets a little harder to find.  Of course the photographer liked the image as it was or he wouldn't posted it for comments.

"Even in a photography class, students ... "  True, but this neither a final exam or a class.  A class has a leader, and this forum doesn't.

"You're trying to impose your own baggage here in contravention the customs of LL and every other photo discussion forum I've ever visited."  That's plain crap.  I do not have the authority, power, or desire to impose anything here.  My suggestion is not baggage.  Maybe you need to get out more and visit more neighborhoods.
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jani
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« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2005, 09:53:50 AM »
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Here are a couple of alternative compositions that I think work. The latter is a completely different image, and to make it work for anything but the web, you'd have to do it again, so it's not a very good option.



In this version, I've attempted to reduce the dominance of the sky, and cropped out part of the left to remove the straws, while retaining the light in the left part of the image. Notice how the pattern of the hills in the fog on the left are reflected in the pattern of the river.



This is a 4x5 landscape cliché, but it works for me, except the sky now is so boring that it needs serious work.
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Jan
seberri
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« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2005, 07:09:21 AM »
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I Just want to tell once more (it is becoming slowly boring :-)) that there is another level in commentars than croping and contrast and of course the famous WOW !  (Boku's edge :-))

the occidental feeling of space with its rule is for me a major handicap for the world, this picture must not be cropped but more open from each sides ... and  no foreground at all if possible

thanks to Jani ..  he likes to play

... and now they are afraid with security !!!
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Ray
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« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2005, 09:47:26 PM »
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I'm actually amazed that you've gotten so many responses at all.
Of course, Seberri has gotten these responses because I think we all recognise the resistance we all have (sometimes) to unpalatable ideas. We should always bear in mind that the critic has an ego and his/her critique is, in a way, also a personal work of art.

This is why I'm rather skeptical of the 'critique' process. Ultimately, it's saying your attempt does not conform with my standards. Now I can justify my standards by demonstrating I'm very erudite. I can justify my standards by demonstrating my photos have sold. I can justify my standards by exhibiting some of my own photos. If you really like my photos and want to produce the same, then you can sit at my feet and recieive instruction. I become a guru.  

I'm not sure what Seberri wants. Perhaps a guru?

He's made some comments that he's averse to cropping because, if anything, the image needs greater expanse. Maybe so. In which case the recommendation would be, 'You should have used a wider lens'.

Are you happier with this recommendation, Seberri?
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dazzajl
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« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2005, 09:46:27 AM »
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I didn't mean to give the impression the image is plastered all over the web.
Sorry Howard, I didn't mean to imply that was your suggestion but more that the previous comments about trolling for compliments may have some basis in fact. Although trolling could well be a bit strong as there is good reason to get as broad a range of opinions as possible.

I will stand by my plastered comment though.  Cheesy
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seberri
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« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2005, 03:28:29 PM »
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yes the little foliage  will be removed in another version
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seberri
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« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2005, 04:16:13 PM »
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thank you to everybody

i shall not crop the left  part for many other reasons, but it's interresting to get your opinion
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boku
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« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2005, 07:09:42 PM »
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after 1138 posts  it's bed time for you  i think ? no ?
OK. You just crossed the line.

Here's my take - anyone who has that many posts has a far greater stake in this place than you.

We are family - I going to start sticking up for my relatives.

PS: You were trolling for a WOW. I agree about the cropping. Time to move on. Do not reply to me or ask me to defend anything. We will never communicate again.

NEXT! - take a number folks.
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Bob Kulon

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Play it Straight and Play it True, my Brother.
Ray
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« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2005, 03:54:37 AM »
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I don't want to see your fotos to critic them but to know who speaks and eventually to learn
Seberri,
There's a great conflict here. If you have to earn a living taking photos, then public opinion is important.

You are essentially asking for public opinion by showing your image on the net. Testing the waters, perhaps. How is the anonymous public likey to judge my work?

You've got a response which basically says, the work is not going to sell. If you want to argue with that, then sell the work and come back to us and tell us we're a bunch of idiots because you just made a thousand bucks.
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seberri
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« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2005, 06:16:03 AM »
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you could but you don't ...
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seberri
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« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2005, 08:14:41 AM »
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jani i cant find any pictures on http://folk.uio.no/jani/
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Jonathan Wienke
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« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2005, 03:28:41 PM »
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Jonathan, perhaps having the photographer participate in his own critique is usual and customary on LL, but it was not allowed in any critiques I have attended.  The reasons given were it limited the photogrpaher's defense of his pwn work, and the photographer is most often not present when his work is in the public eye (sales, magazine articles/covers, etc.)  The critique was more like a final exam for the print and the photogrpaher wasn't permitted to help grade it.
So what? The forums here and at every other photography site on the internet (fredmiranda, etc.) are not a final exam for a graded photography course. Their purpose is to facilitate the discussion of photography, and there is no reason to institutionalize a rule excluding the photographer. Even in a photography class, students are allowed to participate in discussions pertaining to their work, at least until final exams. And there are no final exams here. You're trying to impose your own baggage here in contravention the customs of LL and every other photo discussion forum I've ever visited.
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dazzajl
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« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2005, 07:32:30 AM »
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there is another level in commentars than croping and contrast

Absolutley.........

... but just because people have suggested a crop doesn't mean that they are a slave to the traditions of placing. It's just a case of that's how people feel about that particular image. The great thing about suggestions is once they've been made they become yours to do with as you wish.

Surely the prime objective of this photograph is to make you happy and I feel from your comments that it has at the very least come close to this. Quite often people might not understand what I'm trying to do or say with a photo but through some constructive commentary I might see something that's equally strong or even stronger than my intentions. That doesn't lessen my pleasure or emmotional connection with the image but give me somethibng extra I might otherwise have overlooked.

You could say the fact that the common concensus would be a small crop of the left edge is the mark of well recieved image. Would you have been happier to see paragraph after paragraph pointing out error after error in technical application or going ther other way, to be told about the pictures different elements, which you can obviously see for yourself?
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seberri
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« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2005, 09:51:40 AM »
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Howard show me somewhere a foto taken by you when you were not there and let's speak after that :-)

.. for the moment looking at your comments on this site ...  i don't see any level over a postcart ... why not ? but i am looking for something else
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