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Author Topic: Sinarback 54M abyone?  (Read 6666 times)
kendal
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« on: November 27, 2006, 02:04:50 AM »
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Sinarback 54M anyone? pros? cons?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 02:05:14 AM by kendal » Logged
khwanaon
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 02:23:19 AM »
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Sinarback 54M anyone? pros? cons?
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Kendal,

I have a 54M. it is difficult to tell you pros and cons if not knowing what you plan to do with exactly.
It is a single shot 22 MPx allrounder back, small and very light which makes it perfect to take on location. However, it can as well be used in a studio environment. It is currently and IMO the best quality/price for a single shot 22 MPx, 16bit/channel, dynamic of 11 f-stops
The 54M does however need to be thetered. the M version has an active cooling, and so far I know Sinar has introduced a new version calles 54 MC, which in addition to the active cooling has an integrated cooling fan.

Aon
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kendal
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 03:35:07 AM »
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Aon thanks for your reply.
I will use the back mainly in studio for product/food photography.
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khwanaon
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 04:56:41 AM »
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Aon thanks for your reply.
I will use the back mainly in studio for product/food photography.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87322\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Kendal,

in this case it will be well fitted. As said, it's an allrounder which delivers fantastic files and quality. And I gues for your food work, it is out of question to take a multishot anyway.

All the best,
Aon
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fpoole
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 08:42:23 AM »
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Kendal,

I use a sinarback 54H which I believe has the same chip as the 54m,  the m not having 4/16 shot capability.  I use it mostly in the studio on a P3 for still life and on a contax 645.  I do shoot people with it on the Contax and find it a little too slow but still useable.  I have been using a D2x mostly for people/editorial stuff.  The D2x produces a very good file but does not compare to the sinarback.  The sinarback has the cleanest shadows I have ever seen, probably due to its active cooling.

I doesn't seem too many people on this forum use the Sinarback.  I did a lot of research and  found that when I looked at the quality/price/value factor the sinar was the best package for me.  Don't underestimate the 4-shot capability for still life.  Once you use it and see the difference you will never be satisfied with 1-shot.  I found that lenses make a huge difference and use sinaron digital lenses and a 150mm G-claron which surprised me with its excellent performance.
And live video is only way to go for composition and focusing in the studio.

Captureshop is basic  and uncomplicated.  Since I don't process hundreds of files a day it suits my needs very well.  

I have recently seen used and demo 54H's selling for  around $12000. I think this is a bargain price.
Make sure you get a firewire back and not the older fiberoptic which is still useable but somewhat obselete because of the connections.  Sinar will convert the older backs to firewire for $6000 but it's not worth it.  

If you shot mainly people then this is probably not right back for you.  But for still life, I think it's the best value on the market right now.  I know you were asking about the M, but the H is a big step up and with prices where they are it's something to consider.

Best,
Frank Poole
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khwanaon
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 09:15:03 AM »
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Kendal,

I use a sinarback 54H which I believe has the same chip as the 54m,  the m not having 4/16 shot capability.  I use it mostly in the studio on a P3 for still life and on a contax 645.  I do shoot people with it on the Contax and find it a little too slow but still useable.  I have been using a D2x mostly for people/editorial stuff.  The D2x produces a very good file but does not compare to the sinarback.  The sinarback has the cleanest shadows I have ever seen, probably due to its active cooling.

I doesn't seem too many people on this forum use the Sinarback.  I did a lot of research and  found that when I looked at the quality/price/value factor the sinar was the best package for me.  Don't underestimate the 4-shot capability for still life.  Once you use it and see the difference you will never be satisfied with 1-shot.  I found that lenses make a huge difference and use sinaron digital lenses and a 150mm G-claron which surprised me with its excellent performance.
And live video is only way to go for composition and focusing in the studio.

Captureshop is basic  and uncomplicated.  Since I don't process hundreds of files a day it suits my needs very well. 

I have recently seen used and demo 54H's selling for  around $12000. I think this is a bargain price.
Make sure you get a firewire back and not the older fiberoptic which is still useable but somewhat obselete because of the connections.  Sinar will convert the older backs to firewire for $6000 but it's not worth it. 

If you shot mainly people then this is probably not right back for you.  But for still life, I think it's the best value on the market right now.  I know you were asking about the M, but the H is a big step up and with prices where they are it's something to consider.

Best,
Frank Poole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Frank,

you are 100% right with the 54H and its multishot capability and the clean files in shadows. Often it's underestimted.
However, Kendal shoots mainly food and I dont see a multishot doing the job in most food situations, due to the moving issue.

The 54M is firewire and is faster than the 54H. However, did you shoot the 54H with CaptureShop 5 or CS 4? There is a difference in speed between these 2 versions. The 54M can anyway be used only with CS 5 and higher.

Aon
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kendal
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 09:54:17 AM »
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I shoot a lot of products too (not only food). Is the quality in multishots much better - I mean worth the price difference?
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khwanaon
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2006, 10:10:34 AM »
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I shoot a lot of products too (not only food). Is the quality in multishots much better - I mean worth the price difference?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Kendal,

in this case, you will increase the quality by shooting in multishot, BUT: you need to use (as said by Frank) digital lenses to get out the whole resolution of a 22 Mpx sensor. The best in this case would be the use of the Sinaron digital HR lenses: they are digital and High Res, even a step better than the "normal Sinaron digital.

If you wish I can send to your email address 2 files comparing digital lenses with Multishot and digital lenses with single shot.

Aon
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kendal
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2006, 12:12:38 PM »
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Kendal,

in this case, you will increase the quality by shooting in multishot, BUT: you need to use (as said by Frank) digital lenses to get out the whole resolution of a 22 Mpx sensor. The best in this case would be the use of the Sinaron digital HR lenses: they are digital and High Res, even a step better than the "normal Sinaron digital.

If you wish I can send to your email address 2 files comparing digital lenses with Multishot and digital lenses with single shot.

Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87362\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks for your kind help. the question is ... are those or similar lenses available for the rollei 6008AF or the Sinar Hy6 that is comin out next year. because these are the systems I will eventually work with.
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khwanaon
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2006, 09:04:23 PM »
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thanks for your kind help. the question is ... are those or similar lenses available for the rollei 6008AF or the Sinar Hy6 that is comin out next year. because these are the systems I will eventually work with.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87391\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Kendal,

No, there are not such digital lenses for the Rollei: these are typically digital lenses used on a "large format" camera.
However, the lenses fitting the 600x series can as well be used on the Hy6: among them the very good Schneider AF PQS lenses which are very good and certainly good enough for multishot.

Aon
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fpoole
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2006, 09:52:46 PM »
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Frank,

you are 100% right with the 54H and its multishot capability and the clean files in shadows. Often it's underestimted.
However, Kendal shoots mainly food and I dont see a multishot doing the job in most food situations, due to the moving issue.

The 54M is firewire and is faster than the 54H. However, did you shoot the 54H with CaptureShop 5 or CS 4? There is a difference in speed between these 2 versions. The 54M can anyway be used only with CS 5 and higher.

Aon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87355\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Aon,

I am using CS5.  I have heard that some people still use cs4 because they like the color better, but I have no experience with this. do you agree?  What do you think of the differences between 4 & 5.

I agree with you about shooting food, 4-shot is unecessary and impractical.  This chip is very good in 1-shot mode, i have no complaints about that.  
Kendall, only you can decide if 4-shot mode is worth it .  It depends on the type of stuff you are shooting.  It will virtually eliminate moire and all those other nasty little artifacts.  Also don't underestimate live video.  I didn't like it at first but quickly got used to it and now can't imagine working without it.  You can compose with a precision  that you won't believe.  But this only matters if you are using a view camera.  

Best,
Frank Poole
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Dan Gaye
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2006, 10:49:44 PM »
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Sinarback 54M anyone? pros? cons?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have a 54m that I'm using on my old Hassy system both in the studio and on location. Adapter plates kits go for $800-1300, live video requires a liquid crystal shutter set up for an additional $2500 (I want badly). My biggest complaint is the lack of information specific to the 54m back and CaptureShop. I have also had problems with the rep in NYC getting a spare sync trigger cord. The results have been great as far as color and dynamic range but I have had some sharpness issues that I have been testing and working out. I'm sure I would get better results with a nice view camera and some new digital HR lenses but I'm using what I have first to get my feet wet. I shoot a lot of table top as well as food and the files are beautiful. Shooting tethered is my preference so that I can review on my monitor, it is a bit of a pain outside but my shoots often involve lighting with large scrims so what's a little firewire compared to waiting for a polaroid.

Dan
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Dan Gaye
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2006, 10:59:00 PM »
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Sinarback 54M anyone? pros? cons?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have a 54m that I'm using on my old Hassy system both in the studio and on location. Adapter plates kits go for $800-1300, live video requires a liquid crystal shutter set up for an additional $2500 (I want badly). My biggest complaint is the lack of information specific to the 54m back and CaptureShop. I have also had problems with the rep in NYC getting a spare sync trigger cord. The results have been great as far as color and dynamic range but I have had some sharpness issues that I have been testing and working out. I'm sure I would get better results with a nice view camera and some new digital HR lenses but I'm using what I have first to get my feet wet. I shoot a lot of table top as well as food and the files are beautiful. Shooting tethered is my preference so that I can review on my monitor, it is a bit of a pain outside but my shoots often involve lighting with large scrims so what's a little firewire compared to waiting for a polaroid.

Dan

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khwanaon
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2006, 12:50:23 AM »
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Aon,

I am using CS5.  I have heard that some people still use cs4 because they like the color better, but I have no experience with this. do you agree?  What do you think of the differences between 4 & 5.

I agree with you about shooting food, 4-shot is unecessary and impractical.  This chip is very good in 1-shot mode, i have no complaints about that. 
Kendall, only you can decide if 4-shot mode is worth it .  It depends on the type of stuff you are shooting.  It will virtually eliminate moire and all those other nasty little artifacts.  Also don't underestimate live video.  I didn't like it at first but quickly got used to it and now can't imagine working without it.  You can compose with a precision  that you won't believe.  But this only matters if you are using a view camera. 

Best,
Frank Poole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Frank,

CS 5 is basically a native version written for OSX. The previous CS 4 worked on OSX 10, but not natively. For CS 5 I know that new Input Profiles have been written for each type of Sinarback.Previously with CS 4 you could do your own color calibration and creat your own profile  by means of a Macbeth chart.
This default profile in CS 5 might differ from your previous profile, obviously because it is a default calculated out of a bunch of backs and an average. Though this default profiles work well in most situations, you have also the possibility now in CS 5 to create your own ICC profile, for your own specific back: you can creat your profile by using any profiling fostware (e.g. Gretag-Macbeth ProfileMaker 5) and save this profile in the Input Profile folder in CS. You can then get very accurate colours rendition.
Beside this: CS 5 is a bit faster, although needing more ram. Which means, stuff your computer with as much Ram as possible. And use only one brand and one type of Ram, not mix them together: e.g. 512 with 256, or 1 gb with 512, or so on. This is true for all applications: the more (same branded and same type) Ram, the less problems and the faster.
CS 5 also allows a "Contact Sheet" based workflow, much faster than previously in CS 4: you can just select all the files you want and apply ANY settings without having to open the files and interpolate them. This settings are then embedded in your file when you export and applied. This is so fast and convenient: a major step from CS 4 to CS 5.

As for multishot: I agree, at first it seem very strange to use live video for sharpness and perspective settings, when one was used to have the groundglass and loupe! But you get used of it within a few hours, and cannot get back to a groundglass after.

hope this helps,
Aon
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khwanaon
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2006, 12:57:43 AM »
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Aon,

I am using CS5.  I have heard that some people still use cs4 because they like the color better, but I have no experience with this. do you agree?  What do you think of the differences between 4 & 5.

I agree with you about shooting food, 4-shot is unecessary and impractical.  This chip is very good in 1-shot mode, i have no complaints about that. 
Kendall, only you can decide if 4-shot mode is worth it .  It depends on the type of stuff you are shooting.  It will virtually eliminate moire and all those other nasty little artifacts.  Also don't underestimate live video.  I didn't like it at first but quickly got used to it and now can't imagine working without it.  You can compose with a precision  that you won't believe.  But this only matters if you are using a view camera. 

Best,
Frank Poole
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Frank,

sorry, forgot to precise it: the SB 54M CANNOT be used with CS 4. It needs CS 5

Aon
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kendal
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2006, 02:06:00 AM »
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thanks all of you for your appreciated answers!
is the live video feature also available with the rollei 6008AF/hy6 system?
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khwanaon
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2006, 03:10:16 AM »
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thanks all of you for your appreciated answers!
is the live video feature also available with the rollei 6008AF/hy6 system?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the live video does not depend on the camera in use, but is inherent of the type of back used.

Yes, the 54M, as well as the 54H (multishot) have a live video function.

Aon
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2006, 05:23:50 AM »
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the live video does not depend on the camera in use, but is inherent of the type of back used.

Yes, the 54M, as well as the 54H (multishot) have a live video function.

Aon
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I do not think that is correct.

It depend on the camera.
Phase P30 have live video with LF and Hasselblad 5xx, but
not with H2 f.ex.

Willow
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2006, 07:13:24 AM »
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I do not think that is correct.

It depend on the camera.
Phase P30 have live video with LF and Hasselblad 5xx, but
not with H2 f.ex.

Willow
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Willow,

i was speaking about Sinarbacks only, since Kendal was interested in it. I dont know about Phase One and how their live-video is implemented.

All I know: with the Sinarbacks which have this function it will work on any camera body.

Aon
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