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Author Topic: Frustration with dealers  (Read 12433 times)
Graham Mitchell
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« on: November 27, 2006, 09:47:20 PM »
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I should be fair and say at the outset that I have never found a dealer to be helpful or add any value whatsoever, and that is across all products not just photography so I am already quite biased against dealers. (Oh the stories I could tell...)

Anyone looking for a medium format digital back should know what I mean.

80% of my emails are never returned. Are they making so much money that they don't need the extra business?

Why oh why is no-one publishing prices? Does the price depend on whether you play golf with the dealer on weekends?

Why do they insist on offering deals like "$32K back, but $20K with any old digital back"? Why waste our time by making us buy old backs on ebay just to present to them to get the discount, so that they can throw the back in the bin (or stick it back up on ebay to do another lap)? Why not just come up with a competitive price in the first place?

I just spent 2 hours on the net trying to find a place that lists a price for the Rollei 6008 + Sinar e22 bundle. Didn't manage to find anything despite the fact that this deal has been out for a while now.

Sinar is supposed to be offering a pre-order deal on the Hy6. I went to every Sinar dealer's website worldwide and there's not a single mention of the deal. In fact only 2 of them even mention the Hy6 as 'upcoming'. The rest are silent. What's the point in having an offer if your distribution network won't tell their customers about it??

Hmm...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 09:47:58 PM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 10:06:08 PM »
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Why do they insist on offering deals like "$32K back, but $20K with any old digital back"? Why waste our time by making us buy old backs on ebay just to present to them to get the discount, so that they can throw the back in the bin (or stick it back up on ebay to do another lap)? Why not just come up with a competitive price in the first place?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Graham,

I do agree with you about these silly discount policies. Just discount the back, name the price, and sell it.

Having said that, I know Dave Gallagher and Steve Hendrix personally. Both are fine people. Both are service-oriented. I have bought backs from both men. Both will go beyond the call of duty if you are fair and courteous and professional towards them.

Recently, with Dave, I drove to Atlanta, brought my Canons and tripod, and set up my camera next to the P30 and P45. We shot side by sides, tethered to a G5, checking focus and color and moire as we shot. He had Profoto packs and heads, sitting there, ready to go; ready to test away.

Steve has come to my home and brought backs with him. He's always within a cell phone's range, if you need something. I know recently, with Michael Kravit, you have no idea how he jumped thru hoops to make sure Michael was happy.

I know you can't drive to Atlanta, and I don't know the warranty/service issues if you bought from the U.S., but if it's at all doable, I suggest them, without hesitation. Both guys can be found through this LL forum.

And for the record, I have no connection to them whatsoever, other than being friends and business acquaintences. I have no agenda here.

Mark Tucker, [a href=\"http://www.marktucker.com]http://www.marktucker.com[/url]
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 10:12:05 PM »
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Hi Mark, I have no reason to doubt your experiences. The 'try before you buy' facility could be useful to some, if you live within striking distance of a dealer. I live in a country with no Sinar dealer, so there's really not much they can offer me except a good price and to put the right address on the box when they ship it
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James Russell
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 10:31:43 PM »
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Hi Mark, I have no reason to doubt your experiences. The 'try before you buy' facility could be useful to some, if you live within striking distance of a dealer. I live in a country with no Sinar dealer, so there's really not much they can offer me except a good price and to put the right address on the box when they ship it
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Graham,

I don't know what country you are in but a word of advice from someone who owns nearly 80 grand in digital cameras.

1.  Go with the camera/back with the most stable platform.  Forget about lcd's or software promises, camera bundles to come, go with who has the most stable option today so you can concentrate on photography and not firmware updates.  Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester.

2.  Spend a day on the phone, cash in hand talking to dealers.  I promise you it won't take too many calls until you find someone that shoots straight and gives you a solid price.

Mark Tucker gave you the name of two dealers that are honest and sell product and they are both worth the plane flight to meet with.

As I've said before medium format is in dire need of more transparency.  The company that wins is the company that will offer answers, real solutions with real time deadlines and no excuses.

Same for the dealers.

IMO

JR

[a href=\"http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com]http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com[/url]
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MarkKay
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 11:02:12 PM »
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The distance from Atlanta to Amsterdam is just a little farther than San Francisco to Atlanta   .  Ok i know there are some issues related to going across the borders but I have had good dealings with Steve Hendrix even though I have never met him...

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Graham,

I don't know what country you are in but a word of advice from someone who owns nearly 80 grand in digital cameras.

1.  Go with the camera/back with the most stable platform.  Forget about lcd's or software promises, camera bundles to come, go with who has the most stable option today so you can concentrate on photography and not firmware updates.  Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester.

2.  Spend a day on the phone, cash in hand talking to dealers.  I promise you it won't take too many calls until you find someone that shoots straight and gives you a solid price.

Mark Tucker gave you the name of two dealers that are honest and sell product and they are both worth the plane flight to meet with.

As I've said before medium format is in dire need of more transparency.  The company that wins is the company that will offer answers, real solutions with real time deadlines and no excuses.

Same for the dealers.

IMO

JR

http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com
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Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 11:19:10 PM »
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1.  Go with the camera/back with the most stable platform.  Forget about lcd's or software promises, camera bundles to come, go with who has the most stable option today so you can concentrate on photography and not firmware updates.  Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester.

The company that wins is the company that will offer answers, real solutions with real time deadlines and no excuses.

Graham,

James is right. Do not bet "on the come". Do not believe any promises for future features or roadmaps, because Phase and Leaf both have forfeited any trust in their word, long ago. Buy what works TODAY. Not next April, or at Photokina, or PMA, or whatever. Buy what already has a proven track record.

And, as much as I like Yair and feel sorry for Leaf's plight right now, in my opinion, the company to go with is Phase One, due to lackluster software with Leaf 10. Once in a job, the software is as important as the back, and since we've all tested these backs and not found a nickel's difference in the file quality in each of them, the remaining variable is the software, and that's where Phase takes a commanding lead.

The only other option, since you're in Europe, might be Sinar/Jenoptik/whatever. I know several people who love their Sinar back. But since we're in the U.S., we don't see much of Sinar over here.

Good luck.
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James Russell
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 11:40:32 PM »
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Not next April, or at Photokina, or PMA, or whatever. Buy what already has a proven track record.

We all get sucked into the "to come" and all the manufacturer's have done it to us.

Phase with their better lcd "to come", leaf with their software "to come" hasselblad with dng, or high iso or now full frame and wide angle lenses "to come".  Even Canon and Nikon have a "to come" list whether it's full frame, a decent 50mm lens, or a higher megapixel count.

Don't get caught up in this, because you can lose you focus.  (no pun intended)

As photographers, our job is to make photographs, not test cameras.

I currently own two digital backs from one manufacturer.  The old one works fine, the new one doesn't.  the new one requires the newest softwareware/firmware, but  if I plug the old one into the computer it also uploads the newest firmware which wrecks it.

So now I have a new one that doesn't work and an old one that is hobbled.

Fortunately, I can throw away all the new software, go back to a previous version and make the "old" digital back fully functional again, though the new one is now just a paper weight and I can forget about ever updating the old one with newer software features and even faster computers.

See what I mean by go with the most stable workflow.

For you it might be different, but I suggest testing them.

I use to think it took months to learn these systems and I now revise that thought.  In my opinion if you can't make one of these cameras files look good in two days of trying, then it's the wrong camera.

Sure, you can take a phase, leaf, hasselblaed or sinar file from any current camera and with enough work match them almost exactly . . . . but why?  Some files take 20 corrections some take 2 . . . go for the 2.

Find a dealer that will let you test or offer a 100% money back gaurantee.  Spend two days shooting and one night processing.  

If you can get a few hundred pretty files batched processed in a resonable period then that is probably the system for you.

IMO

JR

http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 12:06:46 AM »
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Find a dealer that will let you test or offer a 100% money back gaurantee.  Spend two days shooting and one night processing. 

That would be ideal but given my location that would mean:

i) flying to city with enough dealers of the big 4 manufacturers
ii) paying for a hotel for a few nights
iii) rent studio and maybe even model
iv) all the hassle involved in organising to shoot several backs together

Such a test could cost $1-2K. I am only in the market for a used 22MP back, so such a test would be disproportionately expensive.

I just have to learn what I can from forums such as this one.

p.s. I have limited my search for the time being to Sinar or Hasselblad backs as they are the only ones to provide a 48x36mm back for the Rollei, and if I want to change to a Hy6 later on I only need to swap adapters. Of the two, I'm definitely leaning towards Sinar.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 12:17:26 AM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2006, 12:22:16 AM »
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I'm a dealer. And I have been a photographer who has bought equipment. I return emails and I don't play golf. I have a cel phone that I am available on. I offer in-store/studio/home demos. Or you can rent a back for a day from our full service rental dept and I will credit the rental charge towards the purchase price. Feel like a trip to sunny Southern California? (heh)

We've all been taken by the soon-to-come feature trick. It seems like you can't buy a sanwich these days without being told it will be 25% more tasty by the time you eat it. Shopping for current features is sound advice. Also keep in mind that the 1st line of post-sales tech support is often from the dealer. So make sure your dealer has at least one person who is technically expert in this field.

I hope you find a quality Sinar dealer to work with. Not all dealers stink!
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Cliff
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LMO
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2006, 01:35:03 AM »
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I tried for a long time go get a sinar P3 with a "matching" digtal back.... Phonecalls, emails, phonecalls, emails.. Yes, he will call you back soon. He is busy a the moment, He is not in... No luck.. The Sinar dealer in Sweden/Norway is aperantly not very eager to sell..

I did end up getting a Mamiya with a Leaf back..
And part of the reason was the dealer. He had been to your studio several times and he was the most honest dealer I have met so far. Not trying to sell his system by telling me how bad and useless the other brands are.. And he answers the phone.. Even at friday afternoons. not sure he is very happy about that, but there is allways "no problem"

I do own a Leaf. But I have used Phase Ones and Hasselblads.. I know how they work. Why do dealers then tell me lies, or "part truth" ? In the end, after spending $xx.xxx do they think I will not find out ?

I demoed a H2D, and I told the dealer I thought the software was a little "clumsy" (?).
The dealer then told me "ohh. well. You are not getting it. This is the most workflow friendly software around." Might be. but not for me.

I do second James Russels advice though. " Unless your paid to be a beta tester, don't be a beta tester."
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 01:36:47 AM by LMO » Logged

Lasse Mørkhagen
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2006, 01:55:08 AM »
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Graham,

If the dealers in your country fail to provide what you require, you should contact the manufacturer's rep who's in charge of your country and ask for his/ her advice.

If they care and believe in their product, they will find you a dealer or they will come in by themselves and spend whatever time is necessary fo you to feel confident in their product.

In my region I have 3 very good dealers, all with experienced photographers working as sales and support people. All are highly professional and commited to their job.

There will always be cases of disputes and unhappy customers and this is where the manufacturer must step in.

If you cannot get this service from the companies whom you are going to spend your money with, they probably don't think that your money is worth the trouble.

We live in a highly competitive market and those who win your trust will win your money, simple!

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
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Dustbak
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2006, 03:33:14 AM »
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Graham,

If the dealers in your country fail to provide what you require, you should contact the manufacturer's rep who's in charge of your country and ask for his/ her advice.

If they care and believe in their product, they will find you a dealer or they will come in by themselves and spend whatever time is necessary fo you to feel confident in their product.

In my region I have 3 very good dealers, all with experienced photographers working as sales and support people. All are highly professional and commited to their job.

There will always be cases of disputes and unhappy customers and this is where the manufacturer must step in.

If you cannot get this service from the companies whom you are going to spend your money with, they probably don't think that your money is worth the trouble.

We live in a highly competitive market and those who win your trust will win your money, simple!

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yair,

That is not how it works for most people. You are assuming they already have a relationship with either the manufacturer or their product. Most people will just shy away and go to another dealer that most of the time sells another product.

I think as a manufacturer you should be more on top of this. I have had exactly the same experiences with your dealer over here.

I will send you an email about this later today.
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2006, 04:17:03 AM »
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I just spent 2 hours on the net trying to find a place that lists a price for the Rollei 6008 + Sinar e22 bundle. Didn't manage to find anything despite the fact that this deal has been out for a while now.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Check out Photografica's pricelist: [a href=\"http://www.photografica.com/shop/templates/Group.asp?GroupGuid=4645]http://www.photografica.com/shop/templates...?GroupGuid=4645[/url]

They always put prices up, and fairly quickly. I have chosen them as my dealer for a lot of expensive photo equipment (even though they are in another country,) for the basic fact that Martin (one of the sales rep's) has a lot of knowledge across the board, and never pulls anything. If the product is available, he tells me and then delivers. Equally if it isn't, he tells me when it is available.

It's also nice that the website posts in DKK, EUR, GBP and USD.

Other than that, my experiences are the same as yours, it's amazing how these guys can keep qustomers coming back (do they?)  
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2006, 04:41:01 AM »
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In the UK the dealers who do good support are companies that rent the gear too so the HAVE to know how it works

If you ever get to do a side by side of the backs I would beware slightly of JRs advice to pick the one that you get to work within 48 hours

The Eyelike is easy to get the hang of in 48 hours - IF the dealer knows how to do it

MOST DONT

With an Eyelike it can take months - or a 1/2 hour lesson from those in the know

Eyelikes pictures look rubbish 'out of the box' because nothing is added to the file it is flat flat flat

Phase pictures look good out of the box becuase the software adds a look - phase guys often the get real confused trying to turn it all off again so they can build thier own look

When I had the one lock up I ever had with my Eyelike I just rang M Guthman at the factory who talked me through the score (up dating the firmware)

None of these backs are duffers, choose want you want, buy it from somewhere cheap and call the factory or post here if you get in a muddle

It just isnt cost effective for most dealers to be 'across' this kit apart from the rental house dealers

And I think you are very correct to go for a back that is movable to HY6 without going back to the factory for an unkown time or cost

SMM
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 04:43:58 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2006, 05:48:31 AM »
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what is normal. ... exists a lot of  secrecy at times even in the price, it suspect of the equality in the prices of all the manufacturers, (Hassy h3d22 = rolly + em22 = .... ) and if you ask technical information (reciprocity, performance of the color, performance of noise, dynamic range according to the sensibility, noise according to the temperature. ..) besides will see that not even they have it. And in general they will not know about what you are speaking.

I am in the same process that your and itself of what you speak...

  valor y al toro amigo
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2006, 06:17:02 AM »
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p.s. I have limited my search for the time being to Sinar or Hasselblad backs as they are the only ones to provide a 48x36mm back for the Rollei, and if I want to change to a Hy6 later on I only need to swap adapters. Of the two, I'm definitely leaning towards Sinar.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You can find Hasselblad (and Phase One) backs on www.yfo.se
Prices for backs, upgrades and options are on the site. The site is in swedish, swedish crowns (1 $ = 7.5 SEK) and tax (25%) included so maybe not so practical for you out there.

The Sinar dealers site have no price information at all of their backs.  


/Tomas
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 06:18:29 AM by Tomas » Logged
James Russell
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2006, 07:44:30 AM »
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I

And I think you are very correct to go for a back that is movable to HY6 without going back to the factory for an unkown time or cost

In  my view that thought is the flaw in the process.  

There is no known time or cost for an HY6 or a hasselblad H4d or anything that is not in the market today ready to ship and working.

I'm not saying the HY6 won't happen, but buying today with the thought it might be available tomorrow never really works out.

To me anything that is not on the shelf and ready for purchase is just rumor.  

I'll say it again, but do not count on anything that is not in the market and even then brand new digital product is more times not ready for use or completely sorted.


These forums are full of instances from Lecia to Nikon and Canon to most of the medium format backs all requiring updates, fixes and workarounds.  

Saving money is good, but having a camera or back that does not work for weeks, months, does not give you any real savings.

In fact you can get so caught up in the process of getting it right, your not getting on to real work.

The worst case scenario is saving on a piece of equipment, using it for work only to have issues.

Your clients don't care if firmware 4.3 is not stable, or focus is not obtainable because of a faulty interface.

What is the saying, Penny Wise, Pound foolish?

Be sure the dealer you are working with will allow you to return a faulty product with no questions asked.  


JR
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2006, 08:03:36 AM »
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In  my view that thought is the flaw in the process. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=87526\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Buying an open platform back is good IMO

While no one thing is certatain the one thing that is certain is a lack of certainty

The Hy6 may come out

The Hy6 may not come out

Hassy might back down on being closed

Hassy may go bust

Phase may go bust

Mam might go bust

Contax might go unbust

Pentax might launch a MF platform with face recognition  AF software and a 14 T/S lense and an open back platform (!)

In that climate an 'open back platform' like the Sinar/Eyelike seems to have an advantage - an advantage that MAY end up being no advantage... who knows...

And someone looking to ensure the tranferability of thier Sinar back shoul buy a contax has or man plate to in case Sinar go bust !

SMM
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Mark_Tucker
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2006, 08:40:09 AM »
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To me anything that is not on the shelf and ready for purchase is just rumor.

MF digital backs, I have found, is one area where you definitely want to stay WAY behind the curve. Like James says above, and I agree, but I would also go further and say "Don't buy anything that's not already on the shelf, is shipping consistently, is confirmed to be fully featured, and also HAS A PROVEN TRACK RECORD".

Look at what happened with the Aptus 75 -- everyone clamoring to get one, only to have it backfire in many people's faces.

Look at what happened with the Aptus 65 with new firmware -- funky white balances, way off.

Look at what happened with the Leica M8 -- same deal, and now, black pants are magenta, and you're facing an official Recall.

I'm sure all these people building these backs are working their tails off to get it right. But we must remember, in the big picture, we're still pretty much in the infancy of digital backs. As knowledgeable as these people are, who are designing them and constructing them, with anything new, surprises are going to happen along the way. It's just where we are in the process.

So take that rule, and apply it toward your back of choice. I just bought a P45, and I actually bought a P45 Plus, and I have a P45 as a "long term loaner" til my Plus arrives. But I had to be clear with myself -- if this P45 Plus never ships, would I be happy just shooting this P45, and using the current 3.76 software? And the answer is a resounding Yes. The P45 does have a solid track record. And when set to compressed Small, you can shoot people very quickly. And when you open the files, your jaw drops when you see the detail.

If I was a Leaf shopper, I'd be looking at that Aptus 22. It's the one with the proven track record. If I was a Phase shopper, pretty much all of them are solid at this point.

One other note that I finally had to reconcile -- None of them are perfect. None of them. There will be sacrifices and compromises with anything you chooose. And some of the compromises are relatively major. If you want easy and bulletproof, choose Canon. Pure and simple. I am a walking testament to that. But I kept having a yearning to get back to medium format, and I chose Phase. Is it perfect? No. Is it like walking around with a giant drum scanner, shooting one frame per second? Absolutely. Gorgeous color, great software, and amazing detail.

Just one opinion.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 08:47:22 AM by Mark_Tucker » Logged
James Russell
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2006, 08:48:10 AM »
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Buying an open platform back is good IMO

While no one thing is certatain the one thing that is certain is a lack of certainty

The Hy6 may come out

The Hy6 may not come out

Hassy might back down on being closed

Hassy may go bust

Phase may go bust

Mam might go bust

Contax might go unbust

Pentax might launch a MF platform with face recognition  AF software and a 14 T/S lense and an open back platform (!)

In that climate an 'open back platform' like the Sinar/Eyelike seems to have an advantage - an advantage that MAY end up being no advantage... who knows...

And someone looking to ensure the tranferability of thier Sinar back shoul buy a contax has or man plate to in case Sinar go bust !

SMM
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


And the world might end tomorrow.  That's not the point.

I'm not being brand specific here, or weighting my views towards any company.

Still, I can tell you from experience that what is said on a pdf and what really happens in the real world is much different.

You can make ANY digital file look good if it's shot properly.  Making 4,000 of them look good is another matter and when it comes time to buy, saving $3,000 without dealer or manufactuer support really is no savings at all.

Cliff of Samy's in LA comes on these forums and his tag line says, Phase, Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.

Great.

Now let's ask Cliff if you can come to LA test (outside of the store) a P-30, a A-65 and a H3D.

Can you shoot 1000 files with each camera.

Does cliff have a software download for each platoform and can you take those 3,000 files back to your studio or hotel room and process them overnight, by correcting color, exposure and tone to get web galleries up the next morning.

And if you do buy let's say the _____ and get back home and all of a sudden you learn that the latest update of the software renders your back 40 pt.s green, will Cliff let you return the camer/back for a full refund?

All I am saying is buying today with the hope of moving to a new camera that no one has actually shot an image with is putting a lot of faith into a pdf.



JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
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