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Author Topic: P21 vs P21+  (Read 4941 times)
jwpeterson
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« on: December 02, 2006, 03:53:40 AM »
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I posted this question  first, incorrectly on the regular digital forum and was referred here.
Having struggled allong tin the 35mm dSLR world for quite some time, ever waiting for the "next model" which might perhaps offer quality more approaching MF film, I have finally decided to make the jump, albeit a cautious one to MF digital by putting a back on my H1. My theory is that if I can get a jump back towards MF quality I can can get off the yearly upgrade bandwagon.
What has pushed me finally over is the new advertisements of the P+ backs to be offered by phase one with "even better image quality" at lower prices. I spoke yesterday with a representative from digital transitions who was extremely helpful and is interesting in me demo-ing a P21 back, as well as one their higher end P series backs.
Here is my questions -
Is now the right or wrong time to buy a P21 back, perhaps at a better then prior cost or should I "hold out" for a plus series back ?
Can the large photoreceptor sites of the P21 (9 micron) work against image quality such as by resulting in alaising ?
I have heard that the p21 lacks microlenses, and hence may by more susceptible to issues with some lenses (perhaps by producing more vignetting ?) Is this an issue that should make be go for a different back ?
Does anyone have specific experiences with the P21 - either positive or negative that they would be willing to point out ?
Thank you all for your consideration.
j w peterson
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awofinden
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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 10:29:26 AM »
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I posted this question  first, incorrectly on the regular digital forum and was referred here.
Having struggled allong tin the 35mm dSLR world for quite some time, ever waiting for the "next model" which might perhaps offer quality more approaching MF film, I have finally decided to make the jump, albeit a cautious one to MF digital by putting a back on my H1. My theory is that if I can get a jump back towards MF quality I can can get off the yearly upgrade bandwagon.
What has pushed me finally over is the new advertisements of the P+ backs to be offered by phase one with "even better image quality" at lower prices. I spoke yesterday with a representative from digital transitions who was extremely helpful and is interesting in me demo-ing a P21 back, as well as one their higher end P series backs.
Here is my questions -
Is now the right or wrong time to buy a P21 back, perhaps at a better then prior cost or should I "hold out" for a plus series back ?
Can the large photoreceptor sites of the P21 (9 micron) work against image quality such as by resulting in alaising ?
I have heard that the p21 lacks microlenses, and hence may by more susceptible to issues with some lenses (perhaps by producing more vignetting ?) Is this an issue that should make be go for a different back ?
Does anyone have specific experiences with the P21 - either positive or negative that they would be willing to point out ?
Thank you all for your consideration.
j w peterson
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88217\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The P25 doesn't have micro lenses and that back seems to do fine. I think the P21 hits the sweet spot, great price too. Also, I don't think anyone's talked about this but there is some degredation of quality when you downsample, I wonder if this gives the P21 an advantage for 95% of the time when your not printing bigger than 11 *14. (providing you don't have to crop much).
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pss
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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 05:24:15 PM »
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The P25 doesn't have micro lenses and that back seems to do fine. I think the P21 hits the sweet spot, great price too. Also, I don't think anyone's talked about this but there is some degredation of quality when you downsample, I wonder if this gives the P21 an advantage for 95% of the time when your not printing bigger than 11 *14. (providing you don't have to crop much).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88256\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the P21 is a great solution....the lack of microlenses only means that it can be used with T/S lenses without problems (or less problems then the P30 for example)....the extra speed and iso of the P21+ is nice, but i think the P21 is very fast as well, the choice between the 2 simply comes down to how much you want to spend....or if the 3000 more for the p21+ would not be better applied to a P30.....the phase upgrade path is phantastic and IMO is part of why phase it the best DMF maker out there (but that is besides the point)....i would save money and avoid the H system, especially if you are buying into the phase system for the long run....you can get contax or mamiya for a fraction of the price and the extra money can be spent on a better back or a future upgrade....
i think that this time next year will see a different situation in the MF market...a couple of questions will be answered: did hasselblad really lock everybody out and did that move work out or backfire? is the Hy6 really that great? where is mamiya going? you want how much for that contax finder?
buying a P21/P21+/P30 (on whatever system you want) right now will give you amazing quality for a year after which you can switch backs and mounts or keep your back and system and be happy....and trade up later....
right now the cheapest way to get in is to go with a P21 mamiya mount...try to get a deal on the back, don't worry about the 3 years warranty(you will probably trade up before then anyway), get a full mamiya outfit on ebay and shoot for a year....
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yodelyo
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« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 07:14:16 PM »
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pss makes alot of sense, thanks for your input. I too want to buy a p21 for my contax system, has anyone out there gotten a solid price out of any dealers in the US? Has anyone shot it at ISO 400 or 800 and if so how did it look?
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CliffSamys
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2006, 09:46:59 PM »
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I agree, pss makes a lot of sense. Maybe you should try to figure out where he got his deal...
The only thing I may disagree with is about the warranty. Phase offers a great warranty. Expedited service all over the place, cross-ship hot-swaps when needed, better case and extra battery AND a free camera mount switch within the 1st year if you want. Plus, if you do upgrade in the warranty period, the warranty starts over, so you don't have to worry about "using it all up".
What kind of stuff do you shoot? Is speed an issue? The P21 is a fast back, so the P21+ seems to make sense, since it will eliminate the buffer issues.
If I had to choose between EITHER the warranty or the + version, I don't know what I'd do... I shoot fast. Well, I'm glad I'm just sellin em now and don't have to decide on that one. Definitely try a P21 out before you buy. That will tell you whether it will do the job for you. And if it does, I'd say go for the P21 value added.
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Cliff
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Phase One, Hasselblad, Leaf, Canon, Nikon, Epson, HP and Mac dealer
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awofinden
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2006, 07:46:06 AM »
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I agree, pss makes a lot of sense. Maybe you should try to figure out where he got his deal...
The only thing I may disagree with is about the warranty. Phase offers a great warranty. Expedited service all over the place, cross-ship hot-swaps when needed, better case and extra battery AND a free camera mount switch within the 1st year if you want. Plus, if you do upgrade in the warranty period, the warranty starts over, so you don't have to worry about "using it all up".
What kind of stuff do you shoot? Is speed an issue? The P21 is a fast back, so the P21+ seems to make sense, since it will eliminate the buffer issues.
If I had to choose between EITHER the warranty or the + version, I don't know what I'd do... I shoot fast. Well, I'm glad I'm just sellin em now and don't have to decide on that one. Definitely try a P21 out before you buy. That will tell you whether it will do the job for you. And if it does, I'd say go for the P21 value added.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What are the buffer issues?
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CliffSamys
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2006, 09:24:55 AM »
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All digital backs have a buffer of onboard memory. The problem is if you shoot quickly, it will fill up. Once full, you need to wait for room before you can shoot again. 10-15 frames is common. The "next-generation" backs (H3D, Phase + and Leaf S) should eliminate this problem by increasing the buffer size. This will allow you to simply hold the button down and shoot til your CF card or HD is full.
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Cliff
Samy's Camera, Pro Digital Manager
Phase One, Hasselblad, Leaf, Canon, Nikon, Epson, HP and Mac dealer
cnorton[at]samys[dot]com
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2006, 10:06:33 AM »
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All digital backs have a buffer of onboard memory. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sinar/Eyelikes dont have a buffer they shoot straight to thier onboard memory until it is full (3 or 6 gig 22/33) - 60 odd frames
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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BJNY
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2006, 10:08:27 AM »
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Cliff,
Switching the mount of the digital back during the first year of ownership isn't free if one doesn't get the 3-year warranty?
Thanks,
Billy
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Guillermo
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2006, 10:12:50 AM »
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Cliff,
Switching the mount of the digital back during the first year of ownership isn't free if one doesn't get the 3-year warranty?
Thanks,
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My dealer told me that it was free even if you don't get the extended warranty.
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pss
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2006, 01:39:01 PM »
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as far as i know, switching within the first year is not free with the "classic" (1 year) warranty....
when i shopped around for my P30, i was referred to Samys LA from the local phase distributer...i was VERY hesitant about going to Samys, since i have had nothing but bad experiences there....BUT i have to say that Cliff completely changed my outlook...extremely knowledgeable, professional AND he got me a great deal....did not really change my opinion about Samys (yet) but Cliff is a good guy....
i had a nice deal lined up with a company in NY, but the local support and a very comparable deal made the difference....Cliff not only sells the product, he has the experience of a digital tech....i have not met any other dealer who can say that...not even the official sales people have the day to day knowledge, working with ALL systems....
and i bought my back from him before he signed up here....so no little extra deal with referrals....
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CliffSamys
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 09:54:10 AM »
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Cliff,
Switching the mount of the digital back during the first year of ownership isn't free if one doesn't get the 3-year warranty?
Thanks,
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The free mount switch is a value added feature. This is not included in the classic warranty.
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Cliff
Samy's Camera, Pro Digital Manager
Phase One, Hasselblad, Leaf, Canon, Nikon, Epson, HP and Mac dealer
cnorton[at]samys[dot]com
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