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Author Topic: Sinar distribution of Hy6  (Read 23586 times)
yaya
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2006, 01:45:10 PM »
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To try and shed some light to those who are curious:

Jenoptik are the owners of the new medium format camera project.

Leaf has a signed contract with Jenoptik, committing to the supply of X amount of Leaf branded bodies & lenses over Y number of years.

This also gives Leaf access to the camera's spec and communication protocol, allowing to utilize its advanced technology.

The Leaf AFi will be distributed by Leaf through its dealers' channel

Pricing and trade-in/ upgrade policies will be made public in the new year

At this point, there are only two DB manufacturers involved in this project.

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
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william
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« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2006, 02:05:46 PM »
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Thanks!

This is still all quite confusing, but if I understand Thierry and Yair correctly, there WILL be a "Sinar Hy6" and there will also be a "Leaf AFi."  Sinar will make adapters for its backs to be used on the Sinar Hy6.  Leaf will make adapters (or non-removable, permanent mounts on the backs themselves?) for all of it's back to be used on the Leaf AFi.

What's still not clear to me is (1) if there will be a Rollei/F&H branded Hy6 and (2) if not, how other back makers will access the Hy6 system.  It seems unlikely that Phase, for example, is going to make a P series back with a mount to fit on a Leaf-branded or Sinar branded camera.  Wouldn't they want a Phase-branded camera or, at a minimum, a "generic" camera ("Rollei Hy6") for their backs, so that they're not suuplying a digital back for a camera that has one of their competitor's names blazoned across the front?

And, from the consumer's perspective: if I buy an "early bird" Sinar Hy6, I know I can mount Sinar backs on it.  What I don't know is if I could mount a Leaf back on it.  E.g., Thierry said "I can speak only for Sinar: we will certainly produce all possible adapters for our own Sinarbacks. My guess is that Leaf will be doing the same with the AFi for their own backs."  That still doesn't tell me if a Leaf back could be mounted on a Sinar Hy6, which is the only one this "early bird" end of year thing is applicable to, correct?

And, what I really don't know (since Phase isn't talking) is if I could mount an eventual Phase Hy6 back on it.  I have a P30, which will be upgraded to the P30+, which I will likely swap from the Contax mount I'm using now to the Hy6 mount if Phase gets on board.

In short, there are too many unknowns for me to make an intelligent decision now.


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William,

At first, let me give an important precision about "early bird" deals concerning Sinar and the Hy6: YES, Sinar AG Switzerland is selling this camera (under the Sinar name Hy6) and is offering such promotion packages to all its distributors worldwide and at the same conditions for all distributors. It is obvious that those promotions might slightly look different in different countries, due to local differences. As such, Sinar is obvioulsy giving warranty for this particular Hy6 camera. This being said:

1. that is correct: you can swap and get the Hy6 with no additional charge. There is a possibility also to KEEP the 6008 at an additional charge which depends on the distributor (country) but which should be about less than 1/2 the new price.

2. First one has to define "the digital back makers who are on board": Sinar is selling this camera worldwide. Another "on board" is Leaf, with their own AFi.

I can speak only for Sinar: we will certainly produce all possible adapters for our own Sinarbacks. My guess is that Leaf will be doing the same with the AFi for their own backs. This is nothing but logical.
Further, I do not see Sinar or Leaf developing and producing adapters for other brands, and at the same time I do not see Sinar or Leaf able to stop other brands to develope and produce themselves the adapters for their own backs, if they wish so.

I hope it makes things a bit more understandable.

Thierry
Sinar AG
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« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 02:06:59 PM by william » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2006, 02:33:55 PM »
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It seems unlikely that Phase, for example, is going to make a P series back with a mount to fit on a Leaf-branded or Sinar branded camera.  Wouldn't they want a Phase-branded camera or, at a minimum, a "generic" camera ("Rollei Hy6") for their backs, so that they're not suuplying a digital back for a camera that has one of their competitor's names blazoned across the front?

I expect that if Phase comes on board, they will also brand camera bodies to match their backs.

I sincerely hope that the backs and cameras will be interchangeable. Being open would be a major selling point of the system. In other words, you don't have to worry about Leaf staying in business if you buy a Leaf camera because you could always switch to Sinar or another brand for compatible add-ons. This peace of mind will help ALL the participants of the Hy6 project. The system as a whole needs every advantage to be able to take on and beat Hasselblad. Fingers crossed.
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2006, 02:56:31 AM »
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To try and shed some light to those who are curious:

Jenoptik are the owners of the new medium format camera project.

Leaf has a signed contract with Jenoptik, committing to the supply of X amount of Leaf branded bodies & lenses over Y number of years.

This also gives Leaf access to the camera's spec and communication protocol, allowing to utilize its advanced technology.

The Leaf AFi will be distributed by Leaf through its dealers' channel

Pricing and trade-in/ upgrade policies will be made public in the new year

At this point, there are only two DB manufacturers involved in this project.

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | yair.shahar@kodak.com | www.leaf-photography.com
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HI
From reports I am hearing....... I think ( my opinion) that Leaf & Sinar will be the only backs that will fit on the Hy6 camera. At the moment with market share Leaf & Phase are market leaders. Why do you think Phase & Mamiya were in talks!!!!!! Lets go back 6 years ago when Leaf & Sinar were working together!!! Lets cut to the chase, maby this is a way of Leaf gaining market share on Phase in the market. I use Mamiya, ZD & Leaf and I am in the middle and a little confused. At the same time I can understand this market posiion.
Thanks Denis
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James Russell
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2006, 10:16:48 AM »
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Leaf has a signed contract with Jenoptik, committing to the supply of X amount of Leaf branded bodies & lenses over Y number of years.


Yair,

I think the question most of us have in realtionship to these branded cameras is, where does this leave people with diferent camera platforms?

Historically Leaf has rolled out new backs in the order of mounts, H-1 first, V mount second, Mamiya 3rd, Contax 4th, with  sometimes a difference in delivery being months.

Since Leaf and Sinar (though I know you can only speak for Leaf) has a commercial interest in the HY6 and is committed to buying and selling a certain number of cameras, does this mean the HY6 will be the first mount for the newest Aptus, or the next newest Aptus?

I know I have trepedation over buying any new camera in the digital age.  Once you realize that Hasselblad has a strong incentive to move you to thier back (28mm lens) I begin to realize that if you want to really use a hasselblad camera, you had better learn to love the Imacon back.

Will this be a reacurring theme with camera.  Will Leaf, Sinar have a strong interest to move you to their camera and like everyone asks, will we have options to use a Phase, Sinar or Hasselblad back on a Leaf Branded HY6?

One of the reasons I chose the Contax was that company had no agenda, because well . . .  that company is gone.   Whatever firmware is in the camera can't be changed or modified to make me move to a different digital back platform and consequently if I have issues with the digital back there can be no excuses as to why the back does not function properly on the Contax becasue it's set in stone.

We all know the DB makers have a business model of upgrade paths.  Will this also become part of the process with the cameras and lenses?

Will the HY6 (version 1) be eventually upgraded to the HY6 version 2 to take advantage of something in the latest Aptus and will a new lens require a new body, or a new back or  . . . well you get my point.

Pricing, lens options, delivery dates is all good information, but the overall business model is just as important as the hardware specs.


JR
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yaya
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2006, 11:17:43 AM »
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In this digital age, the two important components (and where most of your money goes) are the digital back and the lenses. The shutter/ mirror box in between is secondary but does serve the purpose of making it all work as a system and has to be thoughtfuly designed.

For this discussion, let's also put the software component to the side.

Over the last 4-5 years we have seen a decline in sales of MF cameras and saw Contax, Bronica, some V-models and the GX680 dissappearing.

At the same time, nearly every new MF camera is being sold with a digital back.

With regards to the business model, body and lenses are basically tools for selling digital backs. Take a look at the various offers from pro dealers who give a camera+lens at a discounted rate (or free) if you buy the back from them.

The new camera and lens line are designed to allow for advanced features and qualities that are currently not available on other platforms. Therefore you can assume that Sinar and Leaf will have "better" backs for this camera, in the same way that Hasselblad offer "better" backs for the H system. It may well be "the same" back that if attached to the new camera will preform better then if attached to another platform, becasue the camera allows that.

There is no business gain for Leaf in selling the camera or licencing its spec to other DB makers (the licence belongs to Jenoptik) and therefore the camera will not be sold as a separate item (unless is it a second backup body etc.).

Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.

Yair


Quote
Yair,

I think the question most of us have in realtionship to these branded cameras is, where does this leave people with diferent camera platforms?

Historically Leaf has rolled out new backs in the order of mounts, H-1 first, V mount second, Mamiya 3rd, Contax 4th, with  sometimes a difference in delivery being months.

Since Leaf and Sinar (though I know you can only speak for Leaf) has a commercial interest in the HY6 and is committed to buying and selling a certain number of cameras, does this mean the HY6 will be the first mount for the newest Aptus, or the next newest Aptus?

I know I have trepedation over buying any new camera in the digital age.  Once you realize that Hasselblad has a strong incentive to move you to thier back (28mm lens) I begin to realize that if you want to really use a hasselblad camera, you had better learn to love the Imacon back.

Will this be a reacurring theme with camera.  Will Leaf, Sinar have a strong interest to move you to their camera and like everyone asks, will we have options to use a Phase, Sinar or Hasselblad back on a Leaf Branded HY6?

One of the reasons I chose the Contax was that company had no agenda, because well . . .  that company is gone.   Whatever firmware is in the camera can't be changed or modified to make me move to a different digital back platform and consequently if I have issues with the digital back there can be no excuses as to why the back does not function properly on the Contax becasue it's set in stone.

We all know the DB makers have a business model of upgrade paths.  Will this also become part of the process with the cameras and lenses?

Will the HY6 (version 1) be eventually upgraded to the HY6 version 2 to take advantage of something in the latest Aptus and will a new lens require a new body, or a new back or  . . . well you get my point.

Pricing, lens options, delivery dates is all good information, but the overall business model is just as important as the hardware specs.
JR
http://russellrutherford.com/
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thsinar
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2006, 11:41:27 AM »
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In this digital age, the two important components (and where most of your money goes) are the digital back and the lenses. The shutter/ mirror box in between is secondary but does serve the purpose of making it all work as a system and has to be thoughtfuly designed.

For this discussion, let's also put the software component to the side.

Over the last 4-5 years we have seen a decline in sales of MF cameras and saw Contax, Bronica, some V-models and the GX680 dissappearing.

At the same time, nearly every new MF camera is being sold with a digital back.

With regards to the business model, body and lenses are basically tools for selling digital backs. Take a look at the various offers from pro dealers who give a camera+lens at a discounted rate (or free) if you buy the back from them.

The new camera and lens line are designed to allow for advanced features and qualities that are currently not available on other platforms. Therefore you can assume that Sinar and Leaf will have "better" backs for this camera, in the same way that Hasselblad offer "better" backs for the H system. It may well be "the same" back that if attached to the new camera will preform better then if attached to another platform, becasue the camera allows that.

There is no business gain for Leaf in selling the camera or licencing its spec to other DB makers (the licence belongs to Jenoptik) and therefore the camera will not be sold as a separate item (unless is it a second backup body etc.).

Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.

Yair
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Dear Yair,

that's about what I was going to write on my own, and you said it so well! Thanks!

It is a fact that MF cameras are used to sell digital backs. Some MF makers have in the meantime disappeared and Hasselblad has gone its own way. Nobody knows about Mamiya and what is going on exactly.

The new AFi/Hy6 is a project belonging to Jenoptik: they decide who will be allowed to sell this camera, and it is a fact that the decision has be taken in favour of Leaf and Sinar. In this regard, neither Sinar nor Leaf have any power and right to sell it to other companies, being it back manufacturers or not, and as said Yair, actually there is no gain at all to do so.

Thierry
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2006, 11:49:55 AM »
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Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.

Yair
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Hi Yair
Does this mean that Phase out? ( Hy6 platform ).

Thanks Denis
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yaya
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2006, 12:06:31 PM »
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Going forward, it is unlikely that you will see digital backs other than Leaf and Sinar sold with the new camera.

Yair
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Hi Yair
Does this mean that Phase out? ( Hy6 platform ).

Thanks Denis
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I believe Thierry has just answered your question  

Thanks, yair
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josayeruk
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2006, 12:33:13 PM »
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So all this talk of 'evil' Hasselblad having a closed system appears to be exactly the same strategy of Leaf and Sinar?

Perhaps it is time to realise that more integrated cameras are a better choice for us photographers in terms of features and value for money?

Jo S. x
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william
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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2006, 01:17:38 PM »
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OK, now I'm more than confused; I'm verging on angry.

The Hy6 project was heralded as this big open platform, the idea being that a new, advanced camera would be a potential platform for various digital backs.  Then (and, in fact, in this very forum), it was stated that "only two manufacturers are currently on board, but nothing would preclude other manufacturers from making backs/adapters for the Hy6."  (That's not a direct quote, but it's my best recollection)

NOW, if I'm hearing Theirry and Yair correctly, none of the above is true.  Rather, there will be a Sinar Hy6, which will ONLY use Sinar backs, and there will be a Leaf AFi, which will ONLY use Leaf backs.  That's it.  So, the Hy6 platform is only "open" if you define open as "limited to two back manufacturers and no one else (Leaf and Sinar)" rather than "limited to one back manufacturer and no one else (Hassy's approach)."

Yippee for Leaf and Sinar (and Jenoptik), if they think that business model will increase their profits.  It's a pretty crappy model from the consumer's perspective, however. Granted, I have a bit of "sour grapes" because I use Phase, which will apparently be locked out of the Hy6 project, but if I really want a Hy6 bad enough, I'll just sell or swap my Phase back and get a Leaf or Sinar instead, which is, of course, what Jenoptik/Leaf/Sinar would like to happen.  At this point, however, I'd be highly unwilling to do so out of spite because I resent any "closed" model.

The philosophy behind antitrust laws and laws against "tie-ins" is that more choice is always better from the consumer's perspective.  No, I'm not suggesting that there's anything illegal here, I'm making a broader point.  Regardless of legality, these sort of decisions are bad from the consumer's perspective, as Michael so elequently stated regarding Hassy's H3 and with regard to pushing for more manufacturers to adopt the open DNG RAW format.  I don't know if he feels the same way about the way this Hy6 issue is evolving, but I certainly do.

Regardless: it looks like the Hy6 is off the table for me now and I'll stick with the Contax.





Quote
So all this talk of 'evil' Hasselblad having a closed system appears to be exactly the same strategy of Leaf and Sinar?

Perhaps it is time to realise that more integrated cameras are a better choice for us photographers in terms of features and value for money?

Jo S. x
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josayeruk
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« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2006, 01:24:46 PM »
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Regardless of legality, these sort of decisions are bad from the consumer's perspective, as Michael so elequently stated regarding Hassy's H3 and with regard to pushing for more manufacturers to adopt the open DNG RAW format.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think it was far from eloquent.  There were a number of innacuracies about the whole system / idea.

Furthermore it is Hasselblad's THIRD integrated camera.  People seem to have forgotten the H1D and the H2D.  The H1D was released two years ago!

I still use an H2D and the 'integrated' part of the system is a blessing not a curse.  I am sure other uses of the system will agree.

If Leaf and Sinar can create a 'better' tool due to integration then maybe it is still worth your attention?

Jo S. x
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william
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« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2006, 01:32:31 PM »
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There's a difference between something being integrated and somethign being closed.  As I understand it, Hassy offered the H2D (integrated package of the body and back) as well as the H2 (which would allow the use of non-Hassy backs).  Whether one believes the "intergrated" flavor is better isn't the point; rather, the H2 offered a choice.  E.g., if I like the integrated version, great, get the H2D.  If I liked a Phase or Leaf or Sinar back better, OK, get the H2 with whatever back I want.

Nonetheless, we're talking about the Hy6, not Hassy.  The Hy6 will NOT offer choice between integrated or modular.  There will be a Leaf AFi integrated with a Leaf back or a Sinar Hy6 integrated with a Sinar back. That's it.  

My point is not, e.g., a Phase back on a Hy6 would be better than the integrated Leaf/Sinar versions.  My point is only that I'd like to be able to make that decision myself.   It's possible that, in the future, I might decide that I want a Leaf rather than a Phase back anyway; if so, great, I can use the Hy6.  If I (and the majority of owners of medium format backs who use Phase) decide to stick with Phase, no Hy6.

To be clear: I have no particular brand loyalty to Phase: I bought it because it was the best option for my needs available at the time, even though the Aptus was certainly close.  So, I don't really care if Phase wins or loses by virtue of the Leaf/Sinar Hy6 exclusive.  What I care about is how much choice I'll have.



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If Leaf and Sinar can create a 'better' tool due to integration then maybe it is still worth your attention?
Jo S. x
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josayeruk
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2006, 01:39:39 PM »
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There's a difference between something being integrated and somethign being closed.  As I understand it, Hassy offered the H2D (integrated package of the body and back) as well as the H2 (which would allow the use of non-Hassy backs).  Whether one believes the "intergrated" flavor is better isn't the point; rather, the H2 offered a choice.  E.g., if I like the integrated version, great, get the H2D.  If I liked a Phase or Leaf or Sinar back better, OK, get the H2 with whatever back I want.

My point is not, e.g., a Phase back on a Hy6 would be better than the integrated Leaf/Sinar versions.  My point is only that I'd like to be able to make that decision myself.   It's possible that, in the future, I might decide that I want a Leaf rather than a Phase back anyway; if so, great, I can use the Hy6.  If I (and the majority of owners of medium format backs who use Phase) decide to stick with Phase, no Hy6.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90864\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, hopefully it will be a suprise to you to learn that you can still buy an H2 today and fit with a Phase / Leaf as many photographers already have done.

...and as for the second part of your response - I guess it is up to Phase if they can or want to strike a deal with Jenoptik and IF they feel their customer base will be interested enough to warrant a ROI.

Jo S. x
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2006, 01:56:40 PM »
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if the Hy6 will not support Phase backs or if jenoptic decides not to work with phase, the Hy6 will be just as marginal as the rollei 6000 series....very unfortunate but a reality...right now not only does phase have the largest marketshare, they also have a very strong product line, the best (most advanced and stable) software and agressive pricing...i agree that all backs can produce magnificent results, but i don't hear of anyone switching from phase to any other backs, but there is a lot of switching to phase going on....for the Hy6 to compete against hasselblad they have to get phase on board, it is as simple as that....
of course this is neither in sinars nor in leafs interest, so i would take some opinions shared here with a grain of salt....the fact that sinar will be the distributer of the Hy6 makes things more complicated, but regardless, people will switch cameras, not backs and workflow....
at least hasselblad has the advantage (or can at least claim the advantage) of controlling everything and using software to correct lensproblems.....sinar, rllei and leaf won't have that excuse to lock others (phase) out...
i guess we will have to wait and see, but without phase, the Hy6 will go the way of the rollei 6008...probably the best camera with the best lenses, tragically cut down by bad marketing and business decisions....

also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2006, 02:43:30 PM »
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Rather, there will be a Sinar Hy6, which will ONLY use Sinar backs, and there will be a Leaf AFi, which will ONLY use Leaf backs. 

Where did you get this information from? I haven't seen anything official.

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also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....

Who will Phase sell their backs to once Hasselblad finishes locking them out?
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2006, 03:15:40 PM »
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I got this info from Thierry and Yair's posts just above.  That seems relatively "official."

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Where did you get this information from? I haven't seen anything official.

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also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....

Who will Phase sell their backs to once Hasselblad finishes locking them out?
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2006, 03:30:35 PM »
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If I remember correctly, when the announcement of the Hy6 was made their were THREE options announced, not TWO.

1. The Sinar branded version.
2. The Leaf branded version.
3. The Rollei branded version.

I would expect the Rollei version to be an open platform camera that takes all or most DB's with an adapter or a mount on the back, since they don't make digital backs.

It only makes since for the other two, Sinar and Leaf, to make their backs as integrated with their branded cameras as possible. Actually it's a necessity for them to put it together in a way that will give the photographer better results than using the an open platform camera such as a Contax or a Rollei 6008af, otherwise what's the point? Three identical Hy6 cameras with three different names?

The only thing that I haven't read yet is:
Will the Leaf or Sinar versions of the Hy6 allow for the adaption of a Phase back if the photographer decides to change backs? Is there some kind of legal barrier that could hinder Phase from putting a Leaf Hy6 mount on a P-XY back? I hope not.
And if there actually is a Rollei Hy6 will Leaf, Phase and Sinar support it by making their backs with Rollei mounts?
I doubt it, but this would be the best scenario.
An open platform Rollei for everyone who would like to use different backs on one camera or just doesn't want to be "locked in".
A Leaf/Sinar Hy6 that is tuned with the Leaf/Sinar backs giving better performance, but also open enough to allow for a different back if necessary, but of course lacking the added benefits of the integrated version.
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2006, 04:10:05 PM »
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Where did you get this information from? I haven't seen anything official.

Quote
also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....

Who will Phase sell their backs to once Hasselblad finishes locking them out?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=90874\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
there are a lot more contax, mamiyas and H1 and 2s out there then digital backs...these cameras won't go away....if "rollei" locks out phase and hasselblad locks out phase, mamiya will make a body for phase and with phase they could actually compete and make a ZDII that actually delivers what the  first one hinted on....

the only official statements in this forum are from a leaf rep and a sinar rep...
we don't know if there will be a rollei Hy6 which will take any back it pleases via adapter or not....
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2006, 04:18:04 PM »
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if the Hy6 will not support Phase backs or if jenoptic decides not to work with phase, the Hy6 will be just as marginal as the rollei 6000 series....very unfortunate but a reality...right now not only does phase have the largest marketshare, they also have a very strong product line, the best (most advanced and stable) software and agressive pricing...i agree that all backs can produce magnificent results, but i don't hear of anyone switching from phase to any other backs, but there is a lot of switching to phase going on....for the Hy6 to compete against hasselblad they have to get phase on board, it is as simple as that....
of course this is neither in sinars nor in leafs interest, so i would take some opinions shared here with a grain of salt....the fact that sinar will be the distributer of the Hy6 makes things more complicated, but regardless, people will switch cameras, not backs and workflow....
at least hasselblad has the advantage (or can at least claim the advantage) of controlling everything and using software to correct lensproblems.....sinar, rllei and leaf won't have that excuse to lock others (phase) out...
i guess we will have to wait and see, but without phase, the Hy6 will go the way of the rollei 6008...probably the best camera with the best lenses, tragically cut down by bad marketing and business decisions....

also: the Hy6 needs phase to succeed...phase does not need the Hy6....
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I think that the key for the Hy6 or the AFi is what ultimately becomes of the camera/back integration. If there are no significant integration gains, then it just becomes another (expensive) camera system choice. Despite the griping about Hasselblad's "closed system", since the announcement of the H3D, units have been flying off the shelves because the advantages of their solution are clear to anyone who tries one out.

Phase One does currently have the highest market share, but market share is not a static statistic - it changes - sometimes dramatically - even with a single announcement of a new product. People do switch from Phase One - I've had Leaf Aptus sales this year to former Phase One customers. For better or worse (better: performance, worse: choices) integration is the future. I have a hard time seeing a digital back manufacturer surviving 5 more years without an integrated solution. The market can't support them all as it stands today. It's a race to see who remains.

It's good that Phase One has a strong product. If they didn't, their outlook would look dubious. Phase One doesn't need the Hy6, but they better come up with something.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Steve Hendrix
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