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Author Topic: Sinar distribution of Hy6  (Read 23546 times)
BJNY
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« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2006, 08:31:07 AM »
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What purpose is served by having a Leaf, Phase or Sinar logo on this upcoming camera?  Why can't a professional-look color scheme be chosen (a la Contax 645), and ONLY Rollei-branded cameras come off the assembly line.  

I would also like to know if camera body and lenses will occasionally need to be updated with firmware.  If yes, hopefully it will be a more convenient method than Hasselblad's H series.  Also, it would be dreadful if Leaf, Phase and Sinar would issue different camera body firmwares which would prevent inter-operating.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2006, 08:44:27 AM »
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What purpose is served by having a Leaf, Phase or Sinar logo on this upcoming camera?  Why can't a professional-look color scheme be chosen (a la Contax 645), and ONLY Rollei-branded cameras come off the assembly line. 

I would also like to know if camera body and lenses will occasionally need to be updated with firmware.  If yes, hopefully it will be a more convenient method than Hasselblad's H series.  Also, it would be dreadful if Leaf, Phase and Sinar would issue different camera body firmwares which would prevent inter-operating.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91382\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There may be good reasons on the distribution side of things, as well as being able to offer customers a complete solution. Psychologically it can make a difference.
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BJNY
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« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2006, 09:13:16 AM »
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I realize digital back sales are driving the sale of cameras, lenses + accessories, but I think it's just weird to see anything but a Rollei logo on the camera.  It's a Rollei, so call it a Rollei.  I'd cover with black tape any other logo to avoid having to explain "It's really a Rollei camera, manufactured by Jenoptik, but labeled a Leaf, PhaseOne, or Sinar.
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Guillermo
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« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2006, 09:30:47 AM »
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There may be good reasons on the distribution side of things, as well as being able to offer customers a complete solution. Psychologically it can make a difference.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the difference is a matter of perspective.

From the db makers standpoint the HY6 is just a means to sell backs and to have a viable platform that will be available to them.  It's a logical business decision when Hasselblad decided to move thier system into a more proprietary platform.

From a photographer's standpoint (at least those of us that came from film) the camera is the first choice, lens options the second,  the DB the third, the workflow the fourth.*

If Contax had continued to develope thier system with more lenses, faster focus and maybe even some leaf shutter options, I doubt if the HY6 would have been built, especially since the entry price of the contax is so much lower than the comparable HY6 or H1/2/3.

People have written that the lack of a digial offering killed the contax 645, but I believe the cost and the usability  (at the time) of the digital backs is what killed contax.

DB's without lcd's and only 100 iso that cost 30k moved most people to the Canons and I think that is one of the reasons we're where we are today.

Mamiya missed a great opportunity to really be a player and regardless of what mtf charts and graphs show about Mamiya lens quality, few people I know would look forward to working with a Mamiya 645 on a long term basis, if not just because of build quality and feel of the lenses.

IMO

JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com]http://www.russellrutherford.com[/url]


*This order definatley changes once you get into heavy production of thousands of images.

At that point workflow is way more important than anything that happens on the front end.
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william
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« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2006, 09:37:41 AM »
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OK, that clarifies things a bit; thanks.  The remaining questions probably are ones that can only be answered by F&H, Jenoptik and Phase:

(1) Will there be a "generic" Rollei Hy6, to which backs other than Sinar or Leaf can be attached, or are all Hy6 cameras going to be allocated to Leaf and Sinar and sold under their respective brands only?  If the latter, then, as Yair noted, the Hy6 platform will efectively (even if not theoretically) be limited to Leaf and Sinar, because neither company plans on selling its Hy6 cameras separately from its own backs.  So, even if Phase decided to make its backs available in Hy6 mount, they wouldn't have any cameras to put them on, unless there's a generic Rollei Hy6, OR unless it cuts the same sort of deal as Leaf and Sinar and gets Jenoptik to make Phase-branded Hy6s, which Phase would bundle and sell with its backs.

(2) Does Phase plan on making its backs in Hy6 mount anyway?  If not, then all the theorizing about the Hy6 being open to companies beyond Leaf and Sinar is irrelevant, because it seems unlikely that Hassy's going to be interested in the Hy6, and therefore the only remaining back maker left out of the Hy6 bandwagon woud be Phase.  (Of course, since there are a LOT of people using Phase backs, it's a pretty big deal whether Phase participates or not)

One other comment: I realize it's not entirely rational, but I really don't like the idea of owning a Leaf, Sinar, or Phase camera.  By that, I mean a camera called the Leaf, Phase or Sinar Hy6.  Rollei makes cameras. These other companies do not.  Thus, the name of the camera should be Rollei.  (Yes, I realize there are strong marketing reasons for the back makers to want to "brand" the whole package.  I just don't like it for aesthetic reasons.)   It'd be like my MacBook Pro being called the IntelBook Pro since it has an Intel chip.  Apple makes computers, Intel makes processors.)  


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The Hy6 and the AFi will come off the same manufacturing line and as far as I know are going to be 100% similiar to each other, except for the badge. 
Yair
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eronald
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« Reply #85 on: December 19, 2006, 10:02:56 AM »
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Yes, I think that except for H, the back-makers have forgotten that while the investment is in the back, it is the camera that is in the photographer's hands. If the bodies are branded and split the temptation to include firmware "special features" will become irresistible - unless the manufactures agree in advance not to do so. As an example, maybe the Sinar will be able to write focus information to the file, while the Leaf will have an enhanced white-balance sensor etc etc.

Edmund



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I think the difference is a matter of perspective.

From the db makers standpoint the HY6 is just a means to sell backs and to have a viable platform that will be available to them.  It's a logical business decision when Hasselblad decided to move thier system into a more proprietary platform.

From a photographer's standpoint (at least those of us that came from film) the camera is the first choice, lens options the second,  the DB the third, the workflow the fourth.*

http://www.russellrutherford.com
*This order definatley changes once you get into heavy production of thousands of images.

At that point workflow is way more important than anything that happens on the front end.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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BJNY
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« Reply #86 on: December 19, 2006, 10:12:27 AM »
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Another question I have about the camera body:  will the battery in the camera grip provide power to whatever digital back is attached?
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Guillermo
BJNY
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« Reply #87 on: December 19, 2006, 11:14:47 AM »
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Film manufacturers Agfa, Fuji, Ilford, Kodak, Polaroid, Scotch, etc. never offered rebadged professional cameras because they are not camera manufacturers.....SIMPLE.  The Rollei logo is a strong brand with  a long history, and that's why the upcoming camera should only be called a Rollei.  I'd be proud to say "It's a Rollei with Zeiss + Schneider lenses."

Billy
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Guillermo
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« Reply #88 on: December 19, 2006, 11:49:27 AM »
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Nothing wrong in having a Sinar camera..they have been making great cameras since 1948 with the business stretching back to the 1890's.

I know they have not made traditional medium format cameras before but ...

Marc
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CliffSamys
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« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2006, 12:08:53 PM »
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Well, I think the back manufacturers are jumping on board as distributors to solve a specific Rollei problem: distribution. How many Rollei 6000 series shooters do you know in the states? Are there not that many because the camera is no good? Of course not. If the back makers can step in and solve some of these distro problems, great.
Another problem with back-specific firmware blends would be rentals. Many pros own a camera and rent backups for specific jobs. It would be a challenge to hunt and pick badies based on firmware maker and version. A generic Hy6 would serve photographers in this regard as well.
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Cliff
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Steve Kerman
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« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2006, 12:11:04 PM »
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There is very positive caché associated with the Rollei name.  I would view it as very positive to have a camera with the Rollei badge, as opposed to Leaf or Phase One or Sinar.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2006, 12:17:32 PM »
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Hi
This is what I have heard from a few of my "sources" in the past few weeks. I think this answers the questions that have been raised on 5 pages of this post. To me this makes sense as Jenoptik owns Sinar. If you look at the press releases you only see Sinar & Leaf branded cameras on the Hy6 platform.
Thanks Denis



( .... contact(s) at Jenoptik says that only two
DB manufacturers are allowed to use the camera. This leaves Phase out.


I guess Phase at the moment prefer to avoid this subject when asked and
lead their dealers and customers to believe that all options are still
open, but as a matter of fact they are not... )
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Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2006, 12:43:24 PM »
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Here's something showing a Rollei branded Hy6

http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf
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JLH
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« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2006, 12:50:42 PM »
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This is an excerpt from Phase One's website.

"The new Phase One P+ digital backs are designed to support all medium format, large format and technical cameras."

Not quite sure what "all" means.
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mikeseb
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« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2006, 12:56:44 PM »
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Am I the only one following this thread (heretofore silently) who thinks we've got some amazingly vigorous dead-horse beating going on here?

A lot of hullabaloo over a camera that's not even available to buyers yet, and seemingly we have people making plans based on press releases and glances at prototypes.

Good lord, what's the rush? Be first on your block to own one? Sell all your current gear and await the Advent of Hy6?

Jeepers.

Happy Holidays to all.
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michael sebastian
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Steve Kerman
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« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2006, 12:59:51 PM »
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Here's something showing a Rollei branded Hy6

http://s_gravesen.perso.libello.com/HY6%20engl..pdf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's interesting...

I believe I saw a picture a few weeks ago (perhaps in Michael's report?) that was badged "Rollei", not "Rolleiflex" as in the pdf that Carl linked.

It sounds like things are still in a state of flux.  Which is not surprising, really.
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hcubell
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« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2006, 01:14:31 PM »
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That's interesting...

I believe I saw a picture a few weeks ago (perhaps in Michael's report?) that was badged "Rollei", not "Rolleiflex" as in the pdf that Carl linked.

It sounds like things are still in a state of flux.  Which is not surprising, really.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve:
Read what is says at the bottom of the brochure under
"Digital Functionality".
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Steve Kerman
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« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2006, 01:34:34 PM »
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Steve:
Read what is says at the bottom of the brochure under
"Digital Functionality".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=91438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

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Digital functionality
Camera designed for alternative use of digital backs, primarily of the Sinar and Leaf brands.

I don't pretend to know what that means.  It sounds to me like marketingspeak for, "We have deals with Sinar and Leaf.  We're not making any statement beyond that here."


Edit to add:  OK, there is one REALLY BIG statement that it's making: Both the Sinar and the Leaf backs will operate on the Rolleiflex-badged body.  So apparently there in no difference in the back interface or software between the Leaf and Sinar versions of the body.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 01:55:41 PM by Steve Kerman » Logged
ericstaud
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« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2006, 01:37:40 PM »
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Here is the screen capture from the Rollei brochure

[attachment=1410:attachment]


If Rollei made available a camera body with firmware supporting the use of Phase, Leaf, and Sinar, then why would anyone buy the brand specific bodies?  You might save a few thousand dollars with a packaged Leaf or Sinar closed system, but you would be very limited in future upgrades, and the resale value would not be as good.  Phase may be allowed to sell its own Phase branded Hy6, but I don't see that Leaf or Sinar would like the addition of a universal body by Rollei.  I would not be surprised if the contracts between Leaf, Sinar, and Jenoptic don't allow a universal camera to be released.  It would be a smart move on their part.

And as for the dead horse...  We won't be beating a dead horse, by voicing what we would like in these new camera systems, until after they are on the store shelves and it is too late to make any changes.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 01:38:57 PM by ericstaud » Logged
jeff_singer
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« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2006, 04:46:11 PM »
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Are we kidding here?  I don't care if it says Hyundai on it... as long as its a great camera and takes any back that I could ever want to own or rent.

Jeff

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jeff singer | photography
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There is very positive caché associated with the Rollei name.  I would view it as very positive to have a camera with the Rollei badge, as opposed to Leaf or Phase One or Sinar.
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