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Author Topic: P30+ or H2CF22  (Read 10835 times)
tomob
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« on: December 05, 2006, 01:37:55 PM »
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Hi,


first of all I would like to thank everyone who helped me with suggestions regarding my confusion with the difference between 1DsMk2 and digital backs.

As it looks I'm going towards buying a back. While I don't have any experience with them again I'm getting confused. I was offered these deals:

1. Secondhand H2 with CF 22 Imacon back with prism finder , 80mm, 2 batteries, 6 months old for 15.000 Euro

2. P30+ new for 18.000 Euro, they can take in my 1DsMk2 body for 4.000 Euro - which is great. I'm getting P30 now, and they exchange it for P30+ when it will came out in February. They can offer me Mamiya 645 with 35mm, 80mm and 120mm macro for 5.000 Euro. So altogether for 23.000 Euro.

3. Demo P30 for Hasselblad for 11.000 Euro

4. Laef Aptus 75 (Mamiya or H) special offer for 18.000 Euro

5. Secondhand P20 - as new - few months old for 4.000 Euros

and last,

5. H3D-22m for 20.000 Euro, but they take in any film medium camera for 3000 Euro and give 3% off when paying with cash so the price would be 16.400 Euro, or 17.800 Euro with 80mm.

I'm thinking most about secondhand H2 with CF22 or P30+ with Mamiya (It's a lot cheaper)

While I have to go on a trip (5 hours by car) to buy these things I can only try them at the shop.

I would be very greatfull for any suggestions.

Thanks,

Tomo
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2006, 03:04:39 PM »
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Hi

I would go for demo P30 for 11.000.
H2 + 35, 80 and 150 for 9.000.
Total 20.000

Sell your MkII ( if you must) for 5.000

And maybe upgrade P30 to P30+ for 5.000

I have tried both the H2D and the P30 and it was a nobrainer
for me to pick the P30.

Willow
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2006, 04:19:16 PM »
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If I am not wrong the 22 chips are physically bigger the the p30/+

(and less cropping in the view finder so nicer to look through)

This give wider angle and potential for narrower depth of field - two of the major advantages of MF over DSLR in my opinion

Personally I would steer clear of the Mam for low flash synch - many others disagree about whether this is a major drawback

In terms of the overall cost the Hassy lenses will widen the gap as 2X the price of Mam lenses

I would still go for the blad - others wouldnt

(well actually I would have a Sinar22/rollei bundle on my list too or an Early Bird HY6)

With the CF back will most likely be tied to blad not that this is nessesaryily a bad thing

I would not consider cost as a factor - getting the wrong solution is more costly in the long run - you'll put your head in a nasty space of wondering 'what if' and being interested in upgrades all the time

If you dont have cash for the system you want borrow the difference - the cost per month is small over the life of a correctly chosen system

I also wouldnt let the Canon go - MF is not versatile enough for general shooting - again if cost is that much of an issue - dont bother with the whole operation it will end in tears

And think about needing a faster computer too....

SMM
« Last Edit: December 05, 2006, 04:21:06 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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tomob
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2006, 05:55:53 PM »
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Morgan and Willow thanks for your thoughts.

Willow can you tell me what you didn't liked with imacon back? Intuitively I'm closer to second hand H2+CF22 or new H3D22 (Have to see what in the end is better price). But my reason tells me to go with P30+ or Aptus 75. Yes I agree with you Morgan that the money difference shouldn't be an issue here while anyway it cost so much that I would really not be happy if I discover something is bothering me.

Yes, this is the kind of feel I'm having now with 1DsMk2. It's really a nice camera to work with and it served me well during 1 year. Also when the light is good crisp direct light (I always try to push the production to organize as much hmi + flash lights as possible) the files it produced were really nice. I can send you some images I did with canon and film simultaneously, would like to see if you would tell where are they from, while it's hard for me I'm not objective and lately really hard on canon. Yes it does not deserve this kind of treatment...hmm

But Morgan I'm quite afraid by your advise to be so careful with going into the digital back. Do you have some unpleasant experience? I shot mostly fashion and advertising, no still-lives but I prefer to work tethered to MacbookPro, so I can't see the problem in speed so much? Would like to hear what do you think about other option - upgrading new canon next year?
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2006, 01:49:42 AM »
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Do you have some unpleasant experience?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=88899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do have an unpleasant experience - yes !

That was buying a Mam 645 and a Kodak Pro Back (three years ago??)

Basically I new about the wideangle restriction and the flash synch restriction

But I had the cash to pay for this system

So I bought it - cash

All along I new I wanted a bigger chip and decent synch speed

Within 6 months I sold the Mam/PB rig AT A BIG LOSS and got what I wanted a 22mp(eyelike)/H1 system (a mix of cash and finance)

This system is beautiful and does everything I wanted and expected I should have had the financial balls to pay for it in the begining

Even though faster/bigger chips are available I dont care - I am happy with 22mp because it equals 645 film and is accepted by all major stock agencies and that was (and is) my quality mission

Of course I am slightly smarting that I cant get the 28mm lense for my H1 but it was never in my picture - I knew then and know now that to go wide with movements I will need a sceond non mirror based system cambo alpa etc

I am happy too that I went with eyelike (adapter plates) because I can effortly change to HY6 if I decide to jump the Hassy ship

I wont do this until there are second hand Hy6s around because the hassy still does eveything I knew it would do and will do probably for 10 years

Incedentally I do DSLR too where I struggle with an unhappyness with the nikon system - I probably should have had the balls to go canon - but that would have mean swapping 10 lenses from 14 to 600 - my balls arent big enough

My overall is that canon is excellent value for money and if money is an issue you should probably stick with the canon

I wouldnt be too excited abouth a 'new' canon though - I dont think the lenses will resolve enough to show the quality of the chip - and 35mm still looks like 35mm

Get your head around chip sizes and thier effect on depth of field because once you do you will want the biggest chip over the biggest file

Hope this ramble helps

SMM
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 01:56:12 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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tomob
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 07:19:05 AM »
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"Get your head around chip sizes and their effect on depth of field because once you do you will want the biggest chip over the biggest file"


Thanks, Morgan. So as it looks you would suggest me to go with let say h2 with imacon CF 22, than with P30? Mamiya is so much cheaper 4.000 Euro less than H2  (sistem with 35, 80, 120 macro) but yes I'm taking your recommendation about mamiya sinch speed seriously, though I was always used to use RZ II and Linhof, I didn't find canon lover sinch speed too limitating. Perhaps there just weren't this kind of locations jobs that would require more than 125 s around in the last year.

Thanks,

Tomo
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 09:39:13 AM »
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Rember it is YOUR choice and YOUR money.

So much depends on your own shooting style

I love narrow depth of field and use a lot of flash often outside in full sun

A lot of my images are 50ISO F4 1/800 - with heaps of flash kind of my trade mark lurid color look with no depth of field and an underexposed/rich background

Another poster here does flash outside a lot on his Mamiya and I beleive is very happy with his rig

Others never use flash or always shoot around f16 or in a studio

But I still like high flash sysnch because it gives your chosen tool more versatitlity and can therefore please a broader set of clients also I beleive that the use of flash to control contrast is more critical in digital shooting over film which whatever people say I beleive has a higher dynamic range - you need, in my opinion to use subtle flash to raise shadows into the DR of a digicam to create the best files

You must test very carefully in similar situations to those you shoot in

Also remember that none of these products are duffers - they are all great tools - in thier correct environment

But dont be blown away by the file that looks best straight off the camera - at least my eyelike took a lot of tweaking to build a 'look'

People say things like hassys are yellow - this is BS when most of the software allows conversions from a grey to be simply pasted to every image shot - all of the backs can quickly create whatever feel you are after - if you have a grip on the software

One thing about Mamiya that is very appealing to me is the the 'old' manual lenses that work in stop down mode with those bodies - the 24 fish and the 55 rise and I think 70 1.8 or 2 - more head scratching for you

SMM
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 09:47:07 AM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2006, 12:23:28 PM »
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if you compare the CF22 to the P30, the decision shouldl be easy..the P30 wins hands down...much faster shooting, 1/3 more resolution, cheaper, iso 800, much cleaner high iso, much cleaner long exposures...drawbacks of the P30 (compared to the CF22): probably more problems with lenscast when using movements, very slightly smaller image area....on paper teh difference is much bigger then through the finder...phase has a pfd on the new +backs where the different sizes are shown....if the finder in masked off, it is hard to tell the difference between the backs...i did this with the P25 and the P30 and after switching back and forth and back and forth...5 more times and i had to check on the back which one i am looking at....it will make a difference when using ultra wides...
the other thing to consider is that the CF22 really is a 2 year old back/chip...a refurb P25 is the same  chip and might be even cheaper....
my recommendation: go with the P30+, get a mamiya with a P30 now, get the P30+ when it comes out and switch to a Hy6 when that comes out....if you need movements or superwide, go with a refurb P25
in general, from my experience stay away from hasselblad cameras and backs....
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 02:36:09 PM »
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Hi Tomo

On major factor why I pick P30 before H2+CF22, is the software.
C1 is IMO a much faster and better software than FlexColor.
And the coloreditor in C1 is one of my favourites.

And when I tried the H2D, it failed all the time. I was not sure it was the camera or the back.
It justed locked up and I got a lot of error msg.
I actually bought the H2D, but after getting two replacments because it failed all the time,
I gave up and cansled the whole deal.

Now that I have H2 and P30, I understand it was the back and not the camera.
I have had no problems with H2.

I also liked the files better from P30 and I get a larger file to work with.
The chip size is smaller, but I get the shallow depth I need and want with it.

The flash sync was also a major factor choosing H2.
I had a very, very good offer on a new Contax kit, but flashsync is to slow for me outdoors.

Higher ISO and noise is way better with the P30 and the P30 is very robust.

So far ( after 2 months ) I am very happy with my pick.

Good luck with yours.


Willow





Quote
Morgan and Willow thanks for your thoughts.

Willow can you tell me what you didn't liked with imacon back? Intuitively I'm closer to second hand H2+CF22 or new H3D22 (Have to see what in the end is better price). But my reason tells me to go with P30+ or Aptus 75. Yes I agree with you Morgan that the money difference shouldn't be an issue here while anyway it cost so much that I would really not be happy if I discover something is bothering me.

Yes, this is the kind of feel I'm having now with 1DsMk2. It's really a nice camera to work with and it served me well during 1 year. Also when the light is good crisp direct light (I always try to push the production to organize as much hmi + flash lights as possible) the files it produced were really nice. I can send you some images I did with canon and film simultaneously, would like to see if you would tell where are they from, while it's hard for me I'm not objective and lately really hard on canon. Yes it does not deserve this kind of treatment...hmm

But Morgan I'm quite afraid by your advise to be so careful with going into the digital back. Do you have some unpleasant experience? I shot mostly fashion and advertising, no still-lives but I prefer to work tethered to MacbookPro, so I can't see the problem in speed so much? Would like to hear what do you think about other option - upgrading new canon next year?
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Willow Photography
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2006, 02:48:40 PM »
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i strongly agree with willow...if C1 was the only difference it would be wrth going with the phase...not sure if you are using it already with your canon (if not you really should give it a try)....
the phase backs with C1 are absolutely bulletproof in terms of function and capture....there simply aren't any problems....shooting tethered, shooting to card, or switching back and forth....i shoot mostly tethered to a macbook pro and it just works great...this is a consideration in a fashion, advertising environment where glitches are no really well received and there is enough to worry about....the phase back and software just works...
i wonder how much depth of field is lost/gained with the larger sensor....we are talking about a very small difference and i wonder if taking a half step forward would not solve that problem anyway...i know, sometimes that is not an option....i pretty much shoot f8 and up, so i am not the right person to talk to, but i still have to throw backgrounds out of focus....
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 11:57:46 PM »
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if you compare the CF22 to the P30, the decision shouldl be easy..the P30 wins hands down...much faster shooting, 1/3 more resolution, cheaper, iso 800, much cleaner high iso, much cleaner long exposures...drawbacks of the P30 (compared to the CF22): probably more problems with lenscast when using movements, very slightly smaller image area....on paper teh difference is much bigger then through the finder...phase has a pfd on the new +backs where the different sizes are shown....if the finder in masked off, it is hard to tell the difference between the backs...i did this with the P25 and the P30 and after switching back and forth and back and forth...5 more times and i had to check on the back which one i am looking at....it will make a difference when using ultra wides...
the other thing to consider is that the CF22 really is a 2 year old back/chip...a refurb P25 is the same  chip and might be even cheaper....
my recommendation: go with the P30+, get a mamiya with a P30 now, get the P30+ when it comes out and switch to a Hy6 when that comes out....if you need movements or superwide, go with a refurb P25
in general, from my experience stay away from hasselblad cameras and backs....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89016\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tomo:

While some here post about less than wonderful experience with the Hasselblad, others are thrilled. Paul makes some good points. However, IMO Flexcolor is an underrated piece of software, with many extraordinary features, and it works reliably. Flexcolor is rarely demonstrated properly, if you do look at the CFH/H2, make sure it's shown to you by someone who knows what they're doing.

The P30 captures about a quarter second faster than the CFH-22 - that's faster, not much faster. It's not cheaper. As you stated, you had an offer of $11,000 Euro for a demo P30, and the CFH-H2 offer you have is $15,000 Euro. If you added an H2 to the P30, the cost would be higher. The ISO and long exposure may be better, but if so, it's slightly better. And Hasselblad is working on 1600 ISO for their backs, which should be available very soon. Plus, they do not charge the extra $$$ for this as Phase One is doing. It will be a free firmware update. They are also working on longer exposure times (in the minutes).

You have to keep in mind that ISO performance and long exposure performance can be moving targets. 6 months ago, ISO 200 was barely usable with Hasselblad backs. Since then, the quality has been improved dramatically, and as noted, will improve even more shortly with the free extension to 1600 ISO.

Regardless of opinions - mine or Paul's - (Hi Paul!) I think you're on the right path, meaning the products you've targeted are both worthy, and you should give both a try and make your own mind up which one you feel is best for you.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 02:01:02 AM »
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Check out the chip size for yourself

I am sure it is quite a lot smaller - giving useless wides (ltest face it 35 is not exactly wide even full frame) and no character to portraits

My opinion as someone who actually prefers the look of 67 so even 645 full frame is a compromise

Ask your self why is a P25 so expensive compared to a P30 wich apparent worse performance - its because many rate chip size as the one inportant spec

SMM
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 04:40:52 AM »
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Check out the chip size for yourself

I am sure it is quite a lot smaller - giving useless wides (ltest face it 35 is not exactly wide even full frame) and no character to portraits

My opinion as someone who actually prefers the look of 67 so even 645 full frame is a compromise

Ask your self why is a P25 so expensive compared to a P30 wich apparent worse performance - its because many rate chip size as the one inportant spec

SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89157\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, I think it is because it is more expensive to manufactor a larger chip that it is more expensive.
Not because anyone rate it as more important.  

On a P25 , 35mm equ a 39mm and on a P30 it equ a 45mm.
It is a difference, but not that much.

And often you need more depth of field than narrow.
I also have heard that it is not very good to stop down to 22 or 32 any longer.
Then a smaller chip gives you an advantage.

Difficult to get all in one package.
Just have to think about what you shoot and pick the tool that
fits the bill.


Wilow
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 05:31:03 AM »
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Well, I think it is because it is more expensive to manufactor a larger chip that it is more expensive.
Not because anyone rate it as more important.  

On a P25 , 35mm equ a 39mm and on a P30 it equ a 45mm.
It is a difference, but not that much.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The P25/45 have a "lens factor" of 1.1, the P30 and P21 have a "lens factor" of 1.3, and the P20 has a "lens factor" of 1.4.

This makes the P21 and 30 actually closer to the square format of the P20, than to the P25/45... And was a deciding factor for me when I chose my back (Of course, square vs. rectangular is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. And I ended up with hasselblad anyways, but that's a different story.)

Also the P21 and P30 don't have Iso 50, and some might consider it an equal advantage to the iso 800 (but not as many as the opposite I suspect... natural gray filters are easier than "creating" iso 800    )

PS: (addendum) The "lens factor" numbers are from Phase Ones brochure on the new "plus" backs...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2006, 05:15:56 PM by godtfred » Logged

Axel Bauer
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2006, 07:22:10 AM »
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The P25/45 have a "lens factor" of 1.1, the P30 and P21 have a "lens factor" of 1.3, and the P20 has a "lens factor" of 1.4.

This makes the P21 and 30 actually closer to the square format of the P20, than to the P25/45... And was a deciding factor for me when I chose my back (Of course, square vs. rectangular is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. And I ended up with hasselblad anyways, but that's a different story.)

Also the P21 and P30 don't have Iso 50, and some might consider it an equal advantage to the iso 800 (but not as many as the opposite I suspect... natural gray filters are easier than "creating" iso 800    )
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2006, 07:36:29 AM »
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Not because anyone rate it as more important.   

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If that were the case then the P25 would surely be withdrawn

A bigger chip gives natural perspective with the lenses, brighter or larger in camera view

What backs/chips do you guys own??

I have 645/22, SLRn35mm Fullframe and D200 Cropped frame and have owned a Square Proback all look good in publication resolution wise but the smaller cameras fail to make any images 'sing'

To me it is important especially on systems where the choise of lenses is fairly limited especially at the wide end

If chip size is of no consequense people should just buy D200s or 350Ds - the file is pretty good for most sizes of reproduction and the cost of the kit is minimal

SMM
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2006, 07:40:29 AM »
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Nice illustration James - what is you opinion

S
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« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2006, 09:05:20 AM »
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Nice illustration James - what is you opinion

S
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Beautiful atmosphere. Unfortunately or fortunately it also shows how little the camera has to do with the image. James could probably have shot this with a Lomo.

Edmund
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« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2006, 11:40:51 AM »
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Beautiful atmosphere. Unfortunately or fortunately it also shows how little the camera has to do with the image. James could probably have shot this with a Lomo.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=89207\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No. a lomo has a smaller recording area and therefore more DOF for a given angle of view and aperture

Doesnt mean he couldnt have taken  a nice picture - but it would have been a different picture
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2006, 12:47:37 PM »
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THANK YOU JAMES!!! this should be posted by itself...somewhere where everyone will see it...

i tested the H2D (which is the same as the CF22?) about a year ago and the shooting speed was nowhere near the P30...it also had pretty bad noise at the top asa (200 at the time?)...i am amazed that they brought up the iso, noise just by firmware upgrades, fixed the color AND made it shoot about 30% faster....all within a year without any changes to the hardware? this is the same chip as in the P25, correct? how come phase can't do that (one stop slower and shoots slower)?
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